Jesus Camp

[Chris]

momoonwez said:

I usually stay away from politics and religion but I wish to comment. I have not seen this documentary but have seen exerps of it. I think that fundamentalism is wrong no matter what religion it is, whether Christian or Islam. I think about Jonestown in the 70's and there is a case of one person's perspective on Christianity gone totally wrong. I believe that religion is a very personal thing. I don't have a problem with a person having an emotional religious experience as long as it is initiated by them and God. I know that countless Sunday school and camps are held all over the world and most of them are not like this camp. My daughter takes part in a service for kids at her church called "Rush hour". It is like a variety show with a lot of fun singing and dancing. They emphasize a value of the week along with fun skits. They are presented with the gospel of Christ in a way that is totally positive and nobody is forced to do anything that they do not wish to do. If it is not a positive thing, I don't think it is right for kids. I think too many of us have been guilted into believing and that is the wrong reason to believe in something. I believe that each family needs to do for their family what is right for them.

Well said, Lindy!

Fundamentalism, whether religious, politically or in any other way, frightens me. To me religion and faith is suppposed to be a positive matter and certainly not about children driven to tears in fear of having sinned or being almost brainwashed to a certain belief.
To me this is even more scarier coming from a nation of -seemingly- non-believers as I am. We have a State Church in which about 80% of all Danes are members. Despite that religion and faith is a very private matter and very few people are actually going to church. If you randomly picked out a 100 people and asked them if they were religious, most of them would probably say "no". If the next question was, if they were members of the State Church, most of them would answer "of course". Asked if they go to church the response would be "No!" If you were then to ask them, "Do you believe in God" I think they would either answer "Yes" or "Maybe, I don't know"
I do believe we are spiritual as a people and as a nation but we are very private in our beliefs it's not something we display to others. Neither do we believe that you have to go to church to have faith. Faith is between you and God and while we are members of the State Church it's more a matter of tradition than of faith.

And where was I going with all this? Oh, yes, what scares me the most about a camp like that is not the religion itself but the way it's practiced. Having faith is a beautiful thing but should not be imposed or forced on anyone, certainly not small children. Parents should definitely raise their children in whichever belief they find appropriate but should also give their children an honest and fair choice as to whether they want to share that belief or not.

- Chris

[hoosier]

I try to remain open-minded about differing religious beliefs but I also feel that a person's belief is personal. No one has the right to impose their belief on someone else or tell them that they "will go to hell" if they continue down what they see as the wrong path. That is why I can not stand the radical fundamentalists who keep pressuring you for some kind of statement of belief. I finally had to tell someone who kept asking me if I have been saved that I do not discuss religion. And seeing all the huge churches etc. lately makes me wonder just how much a part God plays in the church or is it the almighty dollar? Do they think God will be impressed by how many seats they fill each Sunday?

And what is scary, Jim Jones of the poison Kool-Aid was a preacher in the town where I live back in the 1960's!

[matilda]

housemouse said:

Matilda, this leads me to a question for all of you Aussies...

What is the religious environment like in Australia? Are your politicians opening religious as is our George W? Is there any discussion of prayer in schools? I'm curious to find out if religion is the huge overriding issue that it is here in the states.

Happy to put my views mouse but disclaimers are a) am secularist and b) personal views only and can't claim to be those of other Aussies on this Board or elsewhere.

The religious environment, in my view, has taken a turn for the immensely better since we had a new PM and Federal Government elected, with a landslide.

The new PM comes from old-fashioned Labor tradition of what used to be identified as Christian socialism - he like everybody else has dropped the socialist bit but has social justice, Christian-based values and politics. In my experience, this brand of Christianity doesn't attempt to impose itself on anyone/anything else and while it might sound contradictory, I am a fan of what those type of Christians bring to the Left/Centre party here.

For the last ten-fifteen years the Christian Right had indeed made great inroads into mainstream politics, and had attempted to re-ignite a number of debates that I consider best left to individuals' beliefs. You all know the ones I mean.

Our Federal Government was indeed a captive of it, as it was a captive of Bush's foreign policy and indeed everything and anything else that won the Republicans elections - it had been copied lock, stock and smoking barrel (and, in a few short weeks, just for starters ... our troops are now coming home!!! 58 legislative changes will be introduced to the Parliament introducing equity for same-sex couples!! We have signed up to the Kyoto Protocol!! And all of this with a minimum of fuss and nary a murmur from the Murdoch press ... yay!!!).

The school prayer thing had begun to be debated - its forerunner was the compulsory teaching of 'values' in schools and 'values' education had begun to be tied to funding for our public schools.

Many of us hold the secular nature of our public school system very close to our hearts and had begun to become very worried!! The back to basics movement more generally had made inroads, especially as it pertains to testing, there's been a huge rise in the number of low-fee 'Christian' schools and home-schooling. No prizes for guessing where the impetus for that came from.

So the recent change of Government has arrested some very worrying trends.

Our religious climate is a bit different to yours. When we were colonised we had Anglicanism imposed, of course, and as we still have the Queen of England as our Head of State (not kidding - we are still not a Republic though I live in hope) so nominal official religion is the Church of England. No joke. My husband's family still talk about the 'no Catholics need apply' days, not that far behind us, but of course there's been numerous subsequent waves of immigrants to get picked on, making the 'Roman Catholic Question' of just a few decades ago fairly redundant.

Most interesting for any observer of this debate is the inroads made by the fundamentalists into the Anglican Church itself, now bitterly split at a National level between fundamentalist evangelicals and the rest, based on the very scary Sydney Diocese.

The Sydney Diocese are leading the word-wide charge for the evangelical mob to split from Canterbury, based, as I'm sure many of you will know, on that terrible concept that women may be ordained and, the one that the Sydney mob run on most hard, those terrible Episcopalians of yours allowing those terrible homosexuals to be ordained. It can be quite amusing to observe if you're in the right frame of mind.

Anyway, the short answer is we were on the road to living in a fairly awful place but this trend has clearly been rejected by the overwhelming majority of Australians, and I am very glad. I wake up every day and am just incredibly grateful and thankful about it.

Cheers

M

[inuvik]

matilda said:

Most interesting for any observer of this debate is the inroads made by the fundamentalists into the Anglican Church itself, now bitterly split at a National level between fundamentalist evangelicals and the rest, based on the very scary Sydney Diocese.

The Sydney Diocese are leading the word-wide charge for the evangelical mob to split from Canterbury, based, as I'm sure many of you will know, on that terrible concept that women may be ordained and, the one that the Sydney mob run on most hard, those terrible Episcopalians of yours allowing those terrible homosexuals to be ordained. It can be quite amusing to observe if you're in the right frame of mind.

The whole Anglican communion is going through similar things. The global south (Asia/Africa) are basically more conservative, while the West is leaning more towards "liberal" values. Church provinces are breaking up everywhere, and the whole communion is filled with strife and angst everywhere. It saddens me greatly.

I have really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts. But I feel I must put in a plug for organized religion. As a weekly churchgoer, as well as someone who is very involved at the parish and diocescan level, I am very interested in this.

I absolutely agree that one can be spiritual and worship God without church. But I also feel that you miss something that way. Church provides the intellectual/theological component that is important. Faith should be probed, challenged, and refined. It is possible to continue learning outside of church, but many people don't. One can lapse into complacency. Theological discourse is easily provided by the church.

As well, churches provide a sense of community. Jesus himself said "when two or three gather together" (I promise I won't quote anymore!) and intended us to worship together.

Personally, I also feel that many people don't want to attend church as it is time consuming and requires effort. Like anything else, the more you put in, the more you get out. I cannot imagine a full relationship with God without the community provided by my parish and the continual refining of my faith through it.

[Chris]

inuvik said:

I absolutely agree that one can be spiritual and worship God without church. .

I gave it a lot of thought before I wrote my post about us not going to church.
It's my understanding that in the US religion is a significant part of one's identity - whether you are Catholic or Jewish or Episcopalian or Muslim etc. is part of how you define yourself. I'm not sure whether that's the case in Canada as well?
Since we are (almost) all in the State Church, our religious affiliation isn't as important to us.
I know that the fact that very few people go to church here is provocative to someone who's grown up in a society where going to church is something almost everybody does. But it is also the truth. If you go to church regularly here, it means that you are very serious about your faith, if you're not, you don't go. It's a matter of tradition I think. I've grown up with the tradition of not going to church yet I know that our whole society, our laws, ethics and moral beliefs are based on Christian values.

inuvik said:

But I also feel that you miss something that way. Church provides the intellectual/theological component that is important. Faith should be probed, challenged, and refined. It is possible to continue learning outside of church, but many people don't. One can lapse into complacency. Theological discourse is easily provided by the church.

I agree we do miss a lot that way. However, that's how it is here. My point was not to advokate against organized religion in any way but merely to let you know where I'm coming from on this issue. Sometimes I wish it was different. When I occasionally go to church I like it a lot. I seldom go, though.

inuvik said:

Personally, I also feel that many people don't want to attend church as it is time consuming and requires effort.

You're so right!

Like I said in my original post, having faith is something very beautiful and I have no problem whatsoever with any religion. Practiced in a positive way having faith gives your life an extra dimension that I can only envy.
But the likes of the people who run this camp scares me. To me, raising children like that is plain wrong. Teaching children about religion, taking them to church or mosque if you are so inclined is part of a healthy upbringing but don't force your beliefs on them. Give them the opportunity to make that choice for themselves whenever they are ready and if they choose against your wishes, love them just the same.

Take care and keep smiling
- Chris

[matilda]

Inuvik, my heart goes out to you.

I know quite a few pepole who've given their heart to this debate in the Anglican church (must 'disclaim', all on the liberal side) and my observation has been that it's heartbreaking and horrible.

M

[inuvik]

chris said:

I gave it a lot of thought before I wrote my post about us not going to church.
It's my understanding that in the US religion is a significant part of one's identity - whether you are Catholic or Jewish or Episcopalian or Muslim etc. is part of how you define yourself. I'm not sure whether that's the case in Canada as well?

We are a pretty secular society here too, and most people don't go to church. The four "top" denominations, in order, are:

1) Roman Catholic
2) None
3) United Church (a Canadian Protestant church, not an international denomination)
3) Anglican

I agree we do miss a lot that way. However, that's how it is here. My point was not to advokate against organized religion in any way but merely to let you know where I'm coming from on this issue. Sometimes I wish it was different. When I occasionally go to church I like it a lot. I seldom go, though.

And I'm glad you did! I didn't mean to sound like I was criticising you or anyone else here who doesn't attend church, and I hope I didn't. I just felt that it was important to give the other side, in favour of churchgoing.

But the likes of the people who run this camp scares me. To me, raising children like that is plain wrong. Teaching children about religion, taking them to church or mosque if you are so inclined is part of a healthy upbringing but don't force your beliefs on them. Give them the opportunity to make that choice for themselves whenever they are ready and if they choose against your wishes, love them just the same.

I totally agree! Fundamentalism and extreme evangelism of any religion is very scary.

[Chris]

inuvik said:

And I'm glad you did! I didn't mean to sound like I was criticising you or anyone else here who doesn't attend church, and I hope I didn't.

You didn't.

inuvik said:

I just felt that it was important to give the other side, in favour of churchgoing.

And I'm glad you did! I know that churchgoing is important to many people and I find it interesting to hear what you can get out of attending church.

- Chris

[Chris]

I'm going to chime in here though I'm not Australian - I hope you don't mind

matilda said:

housemouse said:

Matilda, this leads me to a question for all of you Aussies...

What is the religious environment like in Australia? Are your politicians opening religious as is our George W? Is there any discussion of prayer in schools? I'm curious to find out if religion is the huge overriding issue that it is here in the states.

Happy to put my views mouse but disclaimers are a) am secularist and b) personal views only and can't claim to be those of other Aussies on this Board or elsewhere.

The religious environment, in my view, has taken a turn for the immensely better since we had a new PM and Federal Government elected, with a landslide.

The new PM comes from old-fashioned Labor tradition of what used to be identified as Christian socialism - he like everybody else has dropped the socialist bit but has social justice, Christian-based values and politics. In my experience, this brand of Christianity doesn't attempt to impose itself on anyone/anything else and while it might sound contradictory, I am a fan of what those type of Christians bring to the Left/Centre party here.

I'm quite surprised that religion plays such a (fairly) big part of your politics.
Our society is in many ways based on Christianity but that has very little influence or importance in todays politics here, at least not directly.
Some are very concerned about our Muslim minority though, mostly I think, because they are intimidated by their different approach to their religion ie not drinking alcohol ( ) and women wearing veils.
We do have a very small Christian democratic party but they haven't had any seats in the Parliament for a while, I can't remember how long it's been.

matilda said:

The school prayer thing had begun to be debated - its forerunner was the compulsory teaching of 'values' in schools and 'values' education had begun to be tied to funding for our public schools.

Do you mean that they are considering doing it again? Interesting. When I started in school some 35 years ago (just dated myself here ) I don't remeber us praying in school. However a couple of months later we moved and in the new school we would sing a hymn and say The Lord's Prayer every day. We moved to a town that was well known as the centre of a very conservative and strict fraction of the Danish State Church. I have no way of knowing but I think that's the reason we had school prayer here even though it was a public school. A few years later we would only do it maybe once a week. The whole school would still assembly every day and sing but we didn't sing hymns every day, maybe only once a week. If we did we would say the Lord's Prayer if it was some other song we wouldn't. I don't think they do it anywhere now.
But, in all grades in elementary school there is a subject called Christianity. All subjects are mandatory with the exception of Christianity. This class is teaching Christianity as well as other religions. Once in a while there is a debate as to whether it's should be re-named and called Religion. I think it should. Call it religion, make it mandatory like any other subject in elementary school so that all children, no matter what their religion is, can learn about religion in a neutral setting.
It's already like that in High School so why not in elementary school?

- Chris

[Deleted]

chris said:

inuvik said:

And I'm glad you did! I didn't mean to sound like I was criticising you or anyone else here who doesn't attend church, and I hope I didn't.

You didn't.

inuvik said:

I just felt that it was important to give the other side, in favour of churchgoing.

And I'm glad you did! I know that churchgoing is important to many people and I find it interesting to hear what you can get out of attending church.

- Chris

I'd answer this, but in truth, it's become a job for me. I'm up in a loft and I sing the Masses (I'm Catholic).

Christmas Eve is a beautiful service, musically speaking; but my favorite time to be there is Holy Week. It's a reminder that our loved ones gone before us are in a better place and we'll all be together again.

[inuvik]

divinemrse said:

Christmas Eve is a beautiful service, musically speaking; but my favorite time to be there is Holy Week. It's a reminder that our loved ones gone before us are in a better place and we'll all be together again.

Me too. I much prefer Easter over Chrismas. It is still less commercial, although just barely. The hymns are much better, and the start of Holy Week (Palm Sunday) is my favorite service of the year (2nd fave being Lessons and Carols at Christmas).

I think it's very amusing that the two most popular subjects on the Board right now are religion and politics! ;D

[housemouse]

inuvik said:

And I'm glad you did! I didn't mean to sound like I was criticising you or anyone else here who doesn't attend church, and I hope I didn't. I just felt that it was important to give the other side, in favour of churchgoing.

I totally agree that the side in favor of churchgoing needed to be shared. It didn't sound to me at all like you were criticizing those who don't attend church.

This is such a personal subject I wasn't sure I should even start the thread. In the end though, I figured that, like several people have said, extremism is dangerous no matter what form it may take, and I found this extremism dangerous.

It is very interesting to me to hear about how big a role religion plays in other the politics of other countries. To me it has always been a way of life that one side wants more religion in politics and the other wants less.

inuvik said:

Me too. I much prefer Easter over Chrismas. It is still less commercial, although just barely. The hymns are much better, and the start of Holy Week (Palm Sunday) is my favorite service of the year (2nd fave being Lessons and Carols at Christmas).

I agree with you and Barbara. I was raised Catholic and I LOVE the Holy Week masses, and all of Lent for that matter. My favorite thing about the Catholic religion is all the rituals, I find them very comforting. The Easter season is chalk full of ritual.

inuvik said:

I think it's very amusing that the two most popular subjects on the Board right now are religion and politics! ;D

Wow, what a board!

[matilda]

My husband was also raised Catholic and would still identify as one in many ways, and our kids are Catholic.

I reckon of all the Christian religions the Catholic ceremonies feel the most wonderful, dunno why. Someone once said to me that the High Anglican ones are the same - been to few of those and there seemed to still be a difference. Maybe it was because most of the High Anglican things I've been to were early 90s funerals for wonderful gay men who passed away due to AIDS-related illnesses, again I dunno.

I think the exchnage of views is FANTASTIC.

You go Team BJ.

M