Fan Fic Q&A

[greenbeing]

I'm moving this over from another thread, as we're not supposed to talk about ff outside this thread anyway. I thought it might be nice to have a general Q&A section anyway, where we can post about writing issues, and general questions, and procedural thingamabobs. A place the writers can chat, perhaps.

ashatan said:

Hey, those of you who write fan fic, how do you get over the Mary Sue complex?
That b---dy woman just keeps barging into my story and it is difficult to write her out!
Natascha

"What do you mean, you lost me?"

Who is Mary Sue and what is her complex? And I need a few more letters to fill in the blanks of b---dy... Perhaps I am just in food coma to the point of my brain not working. That does happen on occasion.

--GB

[anna]

b---dy = bloody

Mary Sue:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

[greenbeing]

anna said:

b---dy = bloody

Mary Sue:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue

Thank you, Anna!

Wow, what the--how? Oh dear. What in the--? Information overload! Lemme try to get this all straight.

Mary Sue. She has a broad range. And she's not just in fan fiction, which is what's really tripping me up. Cosette in Les Mis? Elizabeth and Jessica Wakefield in Sweet Valley High? How can you have a non-canon character in a book that is entirely your own? Cosette? I mean, geez!

I picked the three chicks above as examples because I'm very familiar with them. At first I was getting the vibe that MS was going to be just the MacGuyver of fan fic, able to leap tall buildings in a single bound and save the day for all the canon characters. Which I can understand would be a problem, as the point of fan fic to me is the play with the original characters from the show and figure them out. But in a show like BJ, you have to have some non-canon characters, as every eppie had a different crime. It looks like the distinction between a new character and an MS is the fact that MS sort of takes over the ff, right?

But Cosette and Jessica and Elizabeth? I guess they might be a wish fulfillment... Maybe Victor Hugo really wanted a girl like Cosette to fall for him. But if Cosette is so perfect as to become a Mary Sue, why doesn't Marius? He was the brilliant idealist, the handsome man. Sure, he wasn't rich, but he had his own place and he was a very nice guy.

And then there's Jess and Liz. I grew up reading Sweet Valley. I adored it. I read them all. I even thought that, and the Baby-Sitter's Club, were exactly what books were supposed to be like, so when I wrote stories, I modeled them after those series mostly. It wasn't wish fulfillment that the main character would fall in love with the unattainable, pretty, nice, sweet, perfect girl at school. And I was definitely not the unattainable, nicesweetpretty, etc girl. Nor did I want to be. There were swarms of these girls at my school, and their friends treated them like crap, so who would actually want to be that girl? Yet I was modeling from both real school and these books where there are nicesweetpretty people who are nearly perfect. Would they, although not the main focus of the story, be Mary Sues, even though they were semi-original characters? Is it just an out-of-place, perfect person who becomes an MS?

Also on the list were Inuyasha and Kenshin from two of the manga series I've been reading. Inuyasha is the nice demon who doesn't want people to think he has a soft heart. And Kenshin is the really nice swordsman with the less than stellar past who is trying to save the present to atone for his sins. They're considered on the list to be male versions of the MS. But they're not perfect. So it's just then someone who is too good at what they do, who tries really hard to attain that perfection in their job, and has a good heart? And a bit of wish fulfillment on the part of the author?

In that case, why not put Sam Beckett, of Quantum Leap, genius and Boy Scout extraordinaire? One of my all-time favorite characters. If you're going to put all people who are good and helpful on the list of MSs, even if they are original characters of the author, outside of fan fic, then where does one draw the line? If it's the main character, they are not a minor character who is taking over and saving the day, then just what is the definition of an MS? Then it's any hero character. Didn't Odysseus brave all those perils to get back to his family? Could we then put him on the list of MSs?

Going back to Cosette, according to the definition, an MS is someone either the author most wants to be, or wants to be with. How do we know this? How do we know he didn't just create Cosette as the reason for Marius to plunge into the depths of despair and throw himself behind the barricade? How do we know he didn't create Cosette so Jean Valjean could have someone to care for who wouldn't treat him like a petty ciminal?

Going back to Ashatan's question, finally! I guess I'm still way way out in left field about the exact definition of a Mary Sue, but according to the def, and your question, it looks like you have an original character trying to take over the story? I have not personally had that problem in fan fic, as that would take a lot of effort on my part to create a new character and weave it in. Although I did create a lot of new characters which I peppered through the stories. You have to, or the world becomes stagnant. There are other people out there in the world, not just four detectives and one lieutenant living in a vaccuum. But are they MSs because they're non-canon?

Just scanned through one of the reference links in the wikipedia site, from fictionpress.com. It was rather helpful. There are so many kinds of Mary Sues, and they have some helpful hints on how to not create one.

The part about Cosette still floors me. I mean, one of the greatest books in history, and... Wow. I guess she was too big of a character to have as minor of a personality as she did? Perhaps that was the problem...

Stopping babbling and getting back to work.

--GB

[awlrite4now]

A Mary Sue is the character created by an author writing out his/her own distinct fantasies and/or life experiences. It has little to do with canon, but in fanfic it's usually the writer putting THEMSELVES into the story, which obviously puts a character into the story that wouldn't be canon in an established series.

It's not always a bad thing, but it's a trap into which novice writers often fall.

[greenbeing]

awlrite4now said:

...which obviously puts a character into the story that wouldn't be canon in an established series.

Oh! I think I get it! So it would be like putting a character in who really and truly does not belong in that world and would never ever ever have gotten a chance to show up in the minds of the original writers! Right? Is that it? Do I get it now?

I'm still thrown off by the Mary Sue's in non-fan-fic writing, especially the ones who are main characters, but as long as I understand it in this context, I'll be okay.

You know, this was starting to sound like such a prevalent problem in literature, making me wonder why it'd never been covered in any of my writing classes. But perhaps my professor covered it by rolling his eyes and just never gave it a proper name. Sounds like the term has been around for a while, though, right?

Thanks for all the clarification!

--GB

[Dreamfire]

Wow GB, Thanks for fast and full reply.

My MS definition is about the writer (yes usually novice as Alwrite4now says) heavy handedly placing a charcater into the story which is an idealised version of themselves. Not neccesarily as main character but the tendency is to give them heaps of story time and to have the hero find them very interesting. My assumption is that Mary Sues read really great to the writer because after all it is a version of the writer (and who does not like to seee themselves glorified? ) but I also assume that to the fanfic readership Mary Sue might be quite annoying and detract from the story.

My question is do you have any techniques for editing down MarySues so that they don't creep in and infect the writing? My system right now is just to let her go wild and I am expecting to edit her down later.
I asked here particularly as I like GB's fan fic very much and would like to learn from this writer.
And B___y is bloody as in bloody woman Mary Sue because I di not really want to swear on a boardof such refined and nice people! but I was frustrated. ;D

Cheers,
natascha
PS It is so cool to write something and then pop in tomorrow and see what you guys have to say - I love it!

[greenbeing]

You can say bloody as much as you want, as, in America, it's pretty much the equivalent of saying "drat." Which is personally one of my favorite words. That's the reason I took the job at the library here. I hadn't interviewed yet, and was discussing hours on the phone with my future boss, and was actually thinking of turning him down, although I was prime candidate before the interview. And when I said, oh, those hours won't work, as I don't want to quit my other job, he said, Well, drat! And the rest, as we say, is history.

I'd never heard of a Mary Sue, and the one article on fictionpress.com that I mentioned had good ideas for making sure you don't end up with a Mary Sue. But hey, I have a degree in this, so I'd be more than happy to spread the knowledge I gained through years of classes. I'm the only alumnist in my college writing club, as I really enjoy helping the kids (ha! kids! it's only been two years!) tweak their writing, and sometimes it's easier to take criticism from a peer than a prof. I actually thought of getting my master's degree so I could become a prof, but then that would be all I would ever have time for, grading other people's homework...

This seems like a problem of characterization. So let's analyze a character.

You need a well-rounded character. Little details help. Favorite cookie (yes, Jim! we know!), political affiliation, phobias, birthdate, age, family, friends, car, etc. You can learn so much about a person if they, say, drive a red car (synonymous with speed usually, or outgoing personalities), or if they don't eat chocolate, or when they were two, they fell off a horse, and that's the reason they moved to NYC... Every writer has to put a little of themselves in all their characters, as you need to write what you know, but it's in the details that the character becomes a unique entity of their own. Fictionpress.com had an interesting ranking system I'd never seen before. They took several attributes and told the writer to assign them numbers, much like in a role playing game, so that if the character is exceptionally pretty, then they cannot also be the bestest cook in the county, maybe they're only second best, and that's been eating away at them for years and years and now they have some sinister plot in mind to assure a victory next time. Another way to go about it, that we used to use in my theatre group, is to do a character bio, but this was mostly for the actors, so they could get a sense of who they were playing, but I think it works for writer's too. Just make a list of totally random questions: birth sign, job, staples or paperclips, pens or pencils, pets, house or apartment, favorite plant, favorite color, etc: and answer them. Character is so much more than looks and likes. Obsessions and clothing choice can be important, and how long they spend in the bathroom getting ready in the morning, but you can't base a whole character on that.

My understanding of an MS is that most of what goes on is not intrinsic to the overall plot, correct? So: if a scene is not necessary for plot, or character development, lop it off, cut it down, or cut it altogether. A good story has a delicate balance of plot and characterization.

Point of View might help, also. If you use a more omnipotent point of view, an MS might have more reign, but if you use a close third person and stick with only one character (not MS!), that'll cut down her "screentime." It won't give her a chance to run amok.

I've been writing since I could hold a pencil--still have a couple of my manuscripts, which are in baby handwriting (circles and squiggles and loops and such)--and my first story was "One day I was riding my bicycle and I turned into a butterfly..." I never finished that one, though. But I've had lots of practice, which is what you need to do. Maybe all you need is to get this Mary Sue out of your system, purge your soul, and then move on to a second story without her. Let her fester in a drawer instead of trying to tame her. One of my stories patterned like Sweet Valley High? I still have it, and occasionally still work on it, like a writing exercise, playing with the characters and situations, because it's such a part of me, been with me for years. I have a whole binder full of scenes, which will never leave my house, and it's funny to look back on them, but no one else will ever read them. When I was in high school, my writing teacher had us start dating everything we wrote, and try to write every day. So I can actually look at these things, and know exactly when I wrote it, and where. Sort of like a diary of my life, as I'd work in things that were happening to me personally. I'd never thought of that story as a Mary Sue, just as something really really bad, but fun. But like I said, NO ONE is ever going to read it.

Is any of that helpful? It's a lot to think about while you're writing: keeping the characters and their reactions and dialogue as real and true as possible, while sticking within the bounds of a definite plot. All it takes is practice.

--GB

[greenbeing]

P.S. Just because you know a character prefers macadamian nuts to peanuts does NOT mean it has to show up in the story. Just thought I'd share! YOU might need to know this information, but the reader might not need it. Writers have to be picky and choosy since the human personality is full of so many quirks, it's just massive. All this id has to be wrapped up in the plot. I think that's why there's a plot, to make sure the character doesn't get out of control.

--GB

[Dreamfire]

Thanks GB, I appreciate your time and your cerebral output!
I think I'm getting close to a first drafft now, I'm reallyenjoying it although I dont get a chance to write everyday. For example I am home todat at 6 and I am off at 5am tomorrow to fly to do a 1 day presentation in Sydney which means tonight will have a little BJ board play and then just prep time!

I guess I need to find a beta to check my stuff before I upload it though.

Cheers,
natascha

[greenbeing]

Good luck in Sydney! Boy, don't I wish I could go to Sydney, even if it were only for one day... ;D 'Twould mean spending longer in the airplane than on the ground, though.

We can always use more fanfic. I like it when other people post, as I can't enjoy reading my own. The only fun I get is the first time it comes out the end of the pen, but after that, it's all work. Read it and I'm too tempted to edit.

The last time someone posted for a beta reader, she got several replies, so when you're ready, just ask.

--GB

[greenbeing]

One of my favorite writing quotes, though I can't remember who it's from is:

"If you can't take a picture of it, or put it on a fork, your poem is in trouble."

I think this is true for all writing. The whole "picture is worth a thousand words" thing, how our lives are so visual. It's all in the concrete (details, not sidewalk).

--GB

[Dreamfire]

Anyone want to beta a Blind Justice fan fic for me? I think I am ready to show it to one person and get some help making it palatable.
Natascha

[Dreamfire]

I got another question. Is the locker room unisex? If Karen went to change would she go there or somewhere else?

[kenina]

ashatan said:

Anyone want to beta a Blind Justice fan fic for me? I think I am ready to show it to one person and get some help making it palatable.
Natascha

Sure, I'm up for a beta, if no one else has already answered via PM or email. God knows I can't get any inspiration on my own fic, so maybe betaing one will help. Who knows. My email is [e-mail].

Also, re: the locker room thing--I never gave it much thought. If Karen had to change, my feeling is she'd probably go to the bathroom. But who knows--maybe the NYPD is equal opportunity nudity.

[maggiethecat]

greenbeing said:

One of my favorite writing quotes, though I can't remember who it's from is:
"If you can't take a picture of it, or put it on a fork, your poem is in trouble."
I think this is true for all writing. The whole "picture is worth a thousand words" thing, how our lives are so visual. It's all in the concrete (details, not sidewalk).
--GB

My favorite quote about writing:
"Action is character." F. Scott Fitzgerald

He also said using exclamation points was like laughing at your own jokes. ;D