Doubt **SPOILERS**

[mlm828]

anna said:

The "doubt" that Sister Aloysius expresses at the end of the play is not about Father Flynn's guilt. Of that, she is convinced. Her doubt is about the church itself - a church and a hierarchy that (as she believes) would allow this sort of thing to happen again and again and just keep reassigning the guilty priest. Her doubt is about her ability to believe in such an institution.

Thanks, anna! That explains it. Obviously, I didn't figure it out on my own, either.

[bjobsessed]

Thanks anna. I always thought she doubted her belief that he was guilty and felt bad about driving him away.

BTW, I've read the play again since and now am kind of sitting on the fence. The fact that I can't make up my mind, to me, means it's a well-written play.

[maggiethecat]

Did anyone else catch the rest of today's article from Playbill.com about the play closing? Interesting stuff.

It had been reported previously that Shanley told actor O'Byrne what really happened in the off-stage scenario between priest and student.

"That is correct: Doug Hughes and Brían," Shanley confirmed. "I talked to Doug about it first and then we decided to talk to Brían and tell him, but not the ladies. So we created an atmosphere of doubt in the rehearsal room. What I didn't tell Doug was that I was lying to him."

Should we doubt whether Shanley has decided what really happened? "Oh, no, no — I know," Shanley said. "Yes, absolutely. My explanation would take 15 minutes. The writer needs to know but no one else needs to know."

During the run of Doubt, MTC opened the world premiere of Shanley's Defiance, which Shanley said was part two in a trilogy that began with Doubt.

Shanley said in MTC production notes, "Doubt was about the birth of uncertainty in a person of faith set in a church school I attended in the '60s. Shortly thereafter, the country went through a cultural earthquake. The authority of most of our institutions was called into question, and a powerful cynicism took hold. In short, Doubt turned into Defiance, which is my second play about American hierarchy. I feel doubt is an important and valuable exercise, a hallmark of wisdom. Defiance is a necessary step in the life of an individual and in the life of a nation, but it is an intermediate step — that's why there's going to be a third play."

Bryan O'Byrne, the original Father Flynn, has been cast in Defiance. Let's keep our fingers crossed for a long run and that "replacement cast!"

Do I think Father Flynn did the deed? Oh, yeah.

[mlm828]

Apparently Shanley had the same conversation with RE. Interesting. . . .

kenina said:

Ron. . . told us that the playwright had told him--and only him--whether he intended the priest to be guilty or not. And he wouldn't tell us which it was! He said Shanley only told him because he "had to know how to play it." I told him he'd convinced me he wasn't guilty, and he kind of smiled and nodded, so you can interpret that however you want.

[Chris]

divinemrse said:

Chris, tell me what you think, okay!!!! And have a great time!!!!!! I think I stand alone in the priest's guilt, but........

I await you!

So - do I think he did it? No, I don't.

I have read through this thread and you have had a great discussion arguing both for and against Father Flynn's innocence. There are many things that implies that he did molest the boy, his reactions on Sister Aloysius's accusations, the fact that he had been in three parishes already, spending time alone with the boy etc. etc. but the way he was played convinced me of his innocence.
Even though I know many priests have molested young boys and in spite of Sister Aloysius's strong suspicions I still believe nothing had happened and that she was on a crusade against him for whatever reason.
Father Flynn chose not to defend himself and I think it was because he thought that he could never clear his name did Sister Aloysius make her accusations public.
The way he was portrayed by the Danish actor was, in my opinion, not the portrayal of a man capable of doing something like that. He was soft spoken, kind and a bit of a wuss. His desperation when confronting Sister Aloysius was the one of someone knowing that no matter what he did, he could never convince Sister Aloysius of his innocence.

But still, how would I know? I don't. Maybe it all comes down to the actor playing Father Flynn. Even though he (supposedly) doesn't know either he has to decide for himself what he thinks happened and play his character accordingly.
RE said the playwright had told him what he decided happened between the student and the priest but how can you know whether he told him the truth or not?

maggiethecat said:

It had been reported previously that Shanley told actor O'Byrne what really happened in the off-stage scenario between priest and student.

"That is correct: Doug Hughes and Brían," Shanley confirmed. "I talked to Doug about it first and then we decided to talk to Brían and tell him, but not the ladies. So we created an atmosphere of doubt in the rehearsal room. What I didn't tell Doug was that I was lying to him."

He admits lying to Doug Hughes and then he says;

maggiethecat said:

The writer needs to know but no one else needs to know."

So once again there is doubt, who's telling the truth and who's not?

- Chris

[matilda]

He bloody did it.

Cheers!

Matilda

[Deleted]

The crow tipped me off. Huh??? Yep, the crow. The crow is a predator; the fact that Fr. Flynn heard the crow and didn't recognize the bird - perhaps, then, he did not recognize the predator in himself?

We can all have our ideas (woohoo, maggie and matilda agree with me!) but we'll never really know. I asked Ron on that last day and he just smiled at me and said "you know I'll never tell you" and I even asked Shanley when I met him back in May and HE wouldn't tell me - but he liked my ideas nonetheless. So, the debate lives on.....

[matilda]

Seems to me that the issues that the play raises are about power dynamics (here race and class enter and their relationships with established hiearchies), and in hindsight ie knowing what we know now about child sexual abuse/assault there is no question in my mind that he bloody did it.

Never mind WHAT he actually did, in some way or another he abused a relationship based on trust and power and its many dynamics.

Same as Sister Aloysius who abused her own power etc etc. So in her own way she bloody did it too, big time.

Nice for me to discuss as I wasn't a member of the Board when I saw the play, didn't even know it existed and in fact only when I went to see the play did I go OMG that's the bloke from BJ. Der (Trans = duh). Got into BJ fanfic when I got home and the rest is history.

M