The Pilot

[Deleted]

For those who are interested, I'm again posting the following links that will further explain Title VII and ADA. It's just too lengthy to post here.

www.eeoc.gov/policy/vii.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act

This should answer all of your questions regarding "Jim's reinstatement" or that of any person you may know who's actually experiencing this.

[Colorado girl]

divinemrse said:

For those who are interested, I'm again posting the following links that will further explain Title VII and ADA. It's just too lengthy to post here.

www.eeoc.gov/policy/vii.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act

This should answer all of your questions regarding "Jim's reinstatement" or that of any person you may know who's actually experiencing this.

Also thanks to you Barb as well. Between you and Martha we have lots of info to digest. Karma as soon as I can.....

[Deleted]

momoonwez said:

divinemrse said:

For those who are interested, I'm again posting the following links that will further explain Title VII and ADA. It's just too lengthy to post here.

www.eeoc.gov/policy/vii.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americans_with_Disabilities_Act

This should answer all of your questions regarding "Jim's reinstatement" or that of any person you may know who's actually experiencing this.

Also thanks to you Barb as well. Between you and Martha we have lots of info to digest. Karma as soon as I can.....

Thanks for the future karma Lindy! WOOHOO an even number!!!! I just karma-ed you for the extraordinary sketches of Marty and Tom - well done indeed!

I have knowledge based on 5 years of labor law - however, Martha having worked so hard to be the attorney extraordinarie that she is, is the true expert (no matter if she comes back here and denies being the expert - pay no attention to her!)

[mlm828]

Thanks, Barb! No, I won't claim I don't know anything about Title VII, because I did quite a bit of Title VII litigation "back in the day." In fact, the very first court appearance of my career was in a Title VII case -- in front of the Ninth Circuit! "Terrified" would be a good description of my mental state on that occasion.

Speaking of mental states, the mention of the sessions with Dr. Galloway in my earlier post started me thinking. I am very glad these sessions were supposed to begin the day Jim went back to work, because it gave us those marvelous scenes between Jim and Galloway. But did anyone else think it was a little incongruous that the psychological evaluation took place after Jim was allowed to go back on the job, carrying a gun? Wouldn't it have made more sense to evaluate his fitness for duty before he went back on the job? And we could still have had the sessions with Dr. Galloway; they could have been required for the purpose of monitoring his adjustment to being back on the job, or something of the sort.

[Deleted]

mlm828 said:

Thanks, Barb! No, I won't claim I don't know anything about Title VII, because I did quite a bit of Title VII litigation "back in the day." In fact, the very first court appearance of my career was in a Title VII case -- in front of the Ninth Circuit! "Terrified" would be a good description of my mental state on that occasion.

Speaking of mental states, the mention of the sessions with Dr. Galloway in my earlier post started me thinking. I am very glad these sessions were supposed to begin the day Jim went back to work, because it gave us those marvelous scenes between Jim and Galloway. But did anyone else think it was a little incongruous that the psychological evaluation took place after Jim was allowed to go back on the job, carrying a gun? Wouldn't it have made more sense to evaluate his fitness for duty before he went back on the job? And we could still have had the sessions with Dr. Galloway; they could have been required for the purpose of monitoring his adjustment to being back on the job, or something of the sort.

OMG, YOU SAID IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOOHOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I SO TOTALLY agree with that, M!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Karma!

[Chris]

mlm828 said:

Speaking of mental states, the mention of the sessions with Dr. Galloway in my earlier post started me thinking. I am very glad these sessions were supposed to begin the day Jim went back to work, because it gave us those marvelous scenes between Jim and Galloway. But did anyone else think it was a little incongruous that the psychological evaluation took place after Jim was allowed to go back on the job, carrying a gun? Wouldn't it have made more sense to evaluate his fitness for duty before he went back on the job? And we could still have had the sessions with Dr. Galloway; they could have been required for the purpose of monitoring his adjustment to being back on the job, or something of the sort.

Hmmm, yeah, come to think about it, you're right.. Psychological evaluations AFTER he went back to work, nahh, doesn't sound right.
What if he turned out to be psychologically unstable and in no way fit for duty, then what? He got reinstated once, wouldn't it be difficult to kick him off the job again??

- Chris

[Deleted]

chris said:

mlm828 said:

Speaking of mental states, the mention of the sessions with Dr. Galloway in my earlier post started me thinking. I am very glad these sessions were supposed to begin the day Jim went back to work, because it gave us those marvelous scenes between Jim and Galloway. But did anyone else think it was a little incongruous that the psychological evaluation took place after Jim was allowed to go back on the job, carrying a gun? Wouldn't it have made more sense to evaluate his fitness for duty before he went back on the job? And we could still have had the sessions with Dr. Galloway; they could have been required for the purpose of monitoring his adjustment to being back on the job, or something of the sort.

Hmmm, yeah, come to think about it, you're right.. Psychological evaluations AFTER he went back to work, nahh, doesn't sound right.
What if he turned out to be psychologically unstable and in no way fit for duty, then what? He got reinstated once, wouldn't it be difficult to kick him off the job again??

- Chris

Well, let's put it this way; a person goes for a psyche evaluation before they even get on the job to begin with. Why do I know this? I took the test when I was 18 and passed and I had to do all of that. Why didn't I end up in the Academy (before you ask)? My family had a STROKE when they found out and gave me who-ha, that's why. I should have gone my way, though; I could have been retired by now.

[Katryna]

mlm828 said:

Thanks, Barb! No, I won't claim I don't know anything about Title VII, because I did quite a bit of Title VII litigation "back in the day." In fact, the very first court appearance of my career was in a Title VII case -- in front of the Ninth Circuit! "Terrified" would be a good description of my mental state on that occasion.

Speaking of mental states, the mention of the sessions with Dr. Galloway in my earlier post started me thinking. I am very glad these sessions were supposed to begin the day Jim went back to work, because it gave us those marvelous scenes between Jim and Galloway. But did anyone else think it was a little incongruous that the psychological evaluation took place after Jim was allowed to go back on the job, carrying a gun? Wouldn't it have made more sense to evaluate his fitness for duty before he went back on the job? And we could still have had the sessions with Dr. Galloway; they could have been required for the purpose of monitoring his adjustment to being back on the job, or something of the sort.

Thanks to you all for the information in answer to my question from this morning! It is an interesting subject. I think that Martha hit it right on the head when she mentioned the writers using these lines as a way to show that Jim was not in fact awarded any cash.

I have to agree with what you said regarding the psych eval. I think this actually would happen before the individual returned to work with followup after the actual resumption of duty. Good point!

[matilda]

kathy said:

mlm828 said:

Thanks, Barb! No, I won't claim I don't know anything about Title VII, because I did quite a bit of Title VII litigation "back in the day." In fact, the very first court appearance of my career was in a Title VII case -- in front of the Ninth Circuit! "Terrified" would be a good description of my mental state on that occasion.

Speaking of mental states, the mention of the sessions with Dr. Galloway in my earlier post started me thinking. I am very glad these sessions were supposed to begin the day Jim went back to work, because it gave us those marvelous scenes between Jim and Galloway. But did anyone else think it was a little incongruous that the psychological evaluation took place after Jim was allowed to go back on the job, carrying a gun? Wouldn't it have made more sense to evaluate his fitness for duty before he went back on the job? And we could still have had the sessions with Dr. Galloway; they could have been required for the purpose of monitoring his adjustment to being back on the job, or something of the sort.

Thanks to you all for the information in answer to my question from this morning! It is an interesting subject. I think that Martha hit it right on the head when she mentioned the writers using these lines as a way to show that Jim was not in fact awarded any cash.

I have to agree with what you said regarding the psych eval. I think this actually would happen before the individual returned to work with followup after the actual resumption of duty. Good point!

Part of terms of settlement maybe - phsych eval after return to duty? Or maybe just plotline to allow the excellent Dr Galloway character to be part of the excellent series?

Thanks mlm and Barb - nothing I love more than a bit of comparative labour/human rights law!!

Cheers

Matilda

[mlm828]

matilda said:

Part of terms of settlement maybe - psych eval after return to duty? Or maybe just plotline to allow the excellent Dr Galloway character to be part of the excellent series?

Yes, I'm pretty sure they had Jim undergo his psych eval after returning to work, so that we could have those wonderful scenes with Galloway.

On further reflection, I don't think we can say with 100% certainty that Jim didn't have a psych eval before going back on the job. However, several factors suggest he didn't. First is Fisk's insistence that he was supposed to report for his evaluation on the first day back. Second, Jim is reluctant and suspicious of Galloway, which might not be the case if he'd already had a favorable evaluation before returning to work. (If there was one, it must have been favorable, since he's going back to work). Finally, the result of the sessions with Galloway is his report that Jim is "fit for duty," a determination which would already have been made if Jim had had an evaluation before going back on the job.

[matilda]

mlm828 said:

matilda said:

Part of terms of settlement maybe - psych eval after return to duty? Or maybe just plotline to allow the excellent Dr Galloway character to be part of the excellent series?

Yes, I'm pretty sure they had Jim undergo his psych eval after returning to work, so that we could have those wonderful scenes with Galloway.

On further reflection, I don't think we can say with 100% certainty that Jim didn't have a psych eval before going back on the job. However, several factors suggest he didn't. First is Fisk's insistence that he was supposed to report for his evaluation on the first day back. Second, Jim is reluctant and suspicious of Galloway, which might not be the case if he'd already had a favorable evaluation before returning to work. (If there was one, it must have been favorable, since he's going back to work). Finally, the result of the sessions with Galloway is his report that Jim is "fit for duty," a determination which would already have been made if Jim had had an evaluation before going back on the job.

Mmm ... so makes me think the settlement that involved reinstatment was indeed forced (by the Court and/or public pressure, politics etc) and obviously physch eval part of it - so condition of reinstatment and therefore settlement.

Yes, would have thought that evaluation would have happened prior to settlement in normal course of events - maybe there had been an independent one prior and now part of settlement is to use the employer's one? Hence Jim's mistrust as to the process itself ....

Cheers

Matilda (I really should be working)

[hoosier]

I would think that if Jim had been ordered by the court to a psych evaluation during or prior to the hearing of his case and had failed it for whatever reason, that would have effectively killed any chance at reinstatement. And it would have been squarely on his shoulders not the departments or the city's so it is odd that they didn't press for one. Or did they? Galloway was quick to pick up on Jim's antagonism, labeling him as paranoid as well as suffering from PTSD. Maybe Jim had passed one test already and having done so felt that being ordered to do more was the department's way of trying to trip him up . Maybe that had something to do with why he felt he had to be the 'perfect cop' because he had to pass the 'test'. Doing the job just wasn't enough.

[matilda]

hoosier said:

I would think that if Jim had been ordered by the court to a psych evaluation during or prior to the hearing of his case and had failed it for whatever reason, that would have effectively killed any chance at reinstatement. And it would have been squarely on his shoulders not the departments or the city's so it is odd that they didn't press for one. Or did they? Galloway was quick to pick up on Jim's antagonism, labeling him as paranoid as well as suffering from PTSD. Maybe Jim had passed one test already and having done so felt that being ordered to do more was the department's way of trying to trip him up . Maybe that had something to do with why he felt he had to be the 'perfect cop' because he had to pass the 'test'. Doing the job just wasn't enough.

Absolutley, and if it's the case (I had this thought last night) that a physch eval is a mandatory procedure in any reinstatment for this employer, then he would know about it and what may occur to employees as a result. In thinking it through, he did have preconceived ideas about what it might entail.

And then I thought, after years of establishing custom and practice in matters of reinstatment, it may well be that what happened with Jim is in fact policy/procedure - maybe it's the case that in that workplace (ie NYPD) it's been established/maybe negotiated by the relevant union/s that the physch eval DOES in fact happen post-reinstatement.

In which case his expectations make complete sense ...

What great writing!!

Matilda (again should be working)

[hoosier]

Maggie had hinted at discussing the Pilot again, even if it meant rehashing what had already been talked about but I thought of something new--well, maybe not knew but something I hadn't thought much about before. Could it have been because I am still mesmerized by a certain blond dude and those nuances others pick up so quickly are still filtering their way into my brain.

We all know how Jim used humor to defuse situations and to put others at ease. In the scene where Karen enters Fisk's office to inform him of another homicide, Jim asks who he will be riding with since "the dog, he can't drive". Funny, yes, but he is also taking the bull by the horns as he did when he quizzed the squad about what they were keeping out of the press concerning the case. Nothing tentative about Dunbar. He couldn't be anything less than confident if he wanted to prove that he could still do the job. Right on the heels of Fisk's talk about how no one wanted to ride with him, how it would be better for everyone if he stayed in-house, Jim takes a stand. I can imagine Fisk thinking 'let's let this cocky sob go out the street and see what he's made of' !

[Dreamfire]

hoosier said:

Maggie had hinted at discussing the Pilot again, even if it meant rehashing what had already been talked about but I thought of something new--well, maybe not knew but something I hadn't thought much about before. Could it have been because I am still mesmerized by a certain blond dude and those nuances others pick up so quickly are still filtering their way into my brain.

We all know how Jim used humor to defuse situations and to put others at ease. In the scene where Karen enters Fisk's office to inform him of another homicide, Jim asks who he will be riding with since "the dog, he can't drive". Funny, yes, but he is also taking the bull by the horns as he did when he quizzed the squad about what they were keeping out of the press concerning the case. Nothing tentative about Dunbar. He couldn't be anything less than confident if he wanted to prove that he could still do the job. Right on the heels of Fisk's talk about how no one wanted to ride with him, how it would be better for everyone if he stayed in-house, Jim takes a stand. I can imagine Fisk thinking 'let's let this cocky sob go out the street and see what he's made of' !

Nice provocative thought, Hoosier, and since I wasn't involved in all the original pilot discussions, it all feels new to me. Yes, Jim asking this question does push the issue to the forefront and in that moment when the Boss has more important things to worry about, like a new DOA, Jim's timing is perfect.

I had always wondered if Karen had known she was going to be partnered up with the blind dude and thinking through this moment you've highlighted, the way Fisk just looks ather and her reaction, I am leaning toward the idea that yes she had been forewarned. Perhpas Fisk had even said to her, we'll try and chain him to a desk but he's going to work with you, and this was Fisk saying, um, the chain's not on yet.