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Post by maggiethecat on Sept 12, 2005 17:40:53 GMT -5
Thanks, mouse and maggie, for explaining what I was saying -- or trying to say -- better than I did. Not better -- never that. Just differently, and I love that we all have a slightly different slant on things.  I keep coming back to my original March 8th reaction to The Pilot, that it was -- and is -- the most tightly plotted, finely scripted, and beautifully acted forty minutes imaginable. The fact that there is still so much to explore and discuss and celebrate six months later speaks volumes. Viva Blind Justice! |
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Post by kytdunne on Sept 13, 2005 2:18:29 GMT -5
Could it be that Dunbar is fighting like heck to avoid changing? He is doing everything he possibly can to be the way he used to be. No, he's not. He's adjusting what he needs to adjust. His fight is against preconceived stereotypes that are standing between him and his goals. Kyt |
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Post by kytdunne on Sept 13, 2005 3:06:58 GMT -5
This appears to be turning into a "Has Dunbar changed?" discussion, so I'm going with that flow. Yes, he's fighting to avoid changing, but he's also wise enough to recognize the changes that aren't negotiable. What he's fighting is everyone else's preconceived notions of what he should be "allowed" to do or not do. I don't see that as Dunbar fighting internal changes. So apart from the inescapable physical limitations, has Jim really changed the way he does his job? Not in terms of the way he thinks, not in terms of the way he conducts interviews, not in terms of the way he follows leads or processes evidence. The way he lays it out for Fisk in their first meeting is pretty much the way it plays out. He'll "do what he's always done": bounce ideas back and forth with his partner, conduct interviews, etc. Right. (The major difference, Jim's one "concession" that turns out to be a wild card, is in assuming he will only use his gun "in a struggle up close.") It's the way he's envisioned doing his job after reinstatement, and he's had plenty of time to think it through. How do you mean the concession? He can't reliably shoot anything at a distance any more than he can reliably drive a car. So yeah, he has to change how he does things in the physical sense, but does that change his personality? Has his character, his personality, changed? He’s still smart and determined and complex, still one terrific detective with a quick wit and an engaging manner, but forced by circumstance to be constantly on the defensive. Blind Jim has something to prove, every minute of the day, and that’s new. I'll grant you that one at the outset, but it's not true at the end of the series, and will become less so as time goes on. So at best, for Dunbar, that's a temporary situation. He'll have more to prove on a regular basis than others, and that's new to him for a while, but only a while. I also don't see him in a defensive position since he so routinely nabs the offensive. So some things have changed, and some haven’t. He can still do his job. But what does it cost him? As Christie points out in “Doggone,” it takes everything he has just to get through each day (which may get my vote as the most understanding thing she ever said to him). I don't buy into Christie's explanation. She filters her view of Dunbar through her own wants. Where she took that comment is: "and you don't have anything left for our marriage. I feel like I have to fight you for your attention, and I just can't do it any more." She has a need and he's not filling it. The only thing new in this marital battle is that Christie isn't limited to blaming his job. Now she can factor in his blindness, too. To still be, essentially, the Old Dunbar now takes enormous amounts of energy and concentration, and this is where I am once again in awe of the creative team. We see what it costs Jim to stay at the top of his game, and it’s brilliantly done, deepening not only our understanding of the character, but our involvement and empathy. Waitwait... what are you defining as the "Old Dunbar" - the guy who can shoot a gun and drive a car? Or the base character of the man? And we have three clear examples in The Pilot: 1. Homecoming the first night. He’s down to his last ounce of energy. You can tell by his body language, by the way he doesn’t want to get into it with Christie – “It was good,” he says with forced cheer. “I was busy.” – and by the way he shuts down when she pushes for some honesty. She pushes for some honesty? No she doesn't. When she gets the info that he's on a homicide case, she gets an attitude about it. She's standing on the same side of the battlefield as the squad at that moment. That's not a welcome home, that's a Welcome to the Battle, Part 2. Start with the fact that the first day back at work after a year off, no matter what your job is or what you’ve been doing during that year, is going to be draining. Add about fifteen layers of distrust and suspicion and condescending attitudes, having to defend yourself all . . . day . . . long, and then just for good measure throw in a confrontation with good old Terry Jansen. Small wonder Jim would rather flip a ball against the living room wall than talk to one more person, even his wife, about what he’s trying to do, and why. He's been keeping his guard up all day and it's worn him down. He just doesn't have anything left. I'd have to point you right back to the *way* Christie responded to him. The status of their marriage is still questionable, they're not getting along well, and she's in attack mode. You ever wonder what it might've been like if she'd been pleased he made it back to work and not only that, but had a major case his first day? Like hey, maybe things will return to normal but for the small problem of, you know, Dunbar not seeing anything. All in all, any energy he may have had left after that grueling day, she just sapped right out of him. 2. Pulling the gun on Randy Lyman. This is another great example of the way the writers constructed "bookends," starting with the shots of Dunbar’s eyes, sighted and blind, that frame the bank robbery nightmare. (We should start a Mirror Images thread.) Contrast the Old Dunbar drawing on the gunman, purposefully and confidently . . . with the New Dunbar drawing on Randy Lyman. He gets there in the end – his steely calm and self-assuredness when he’s finally positioned and knows he aimed at Lyman is absolutely the Old Dunbar – but we see what it took out of him, after, when he tries to pull himself together. (For a glorious piece of “acting” -- acting in quotes because I don’t think Ron Eldard acted so much as he lived in Dunbar’s skin -- watch the way he comes skidding into that kitchen, panicked and confused . . .and then follow the transition as he orients himself and takes control of the situation. Compelling is hardly the word.) This is a physical barrier for Dunbar, and sure it's going to have an emotional toll on him. I don't think he was emotionally detached from drawing a weapon in the past when he could see. Now the problem is that he's got a much larger barrier, one he doesn't *know* he can pass until he does it. It's a pass/fail moment for him. It's not long after, he gets a solid example of a moment where he simply cannot back his partner no matter how much he wants it. And he's not nearly as shaky having failed, as he was when he succeeded. Basically, the only way I can "separate" sighted Dunbar from blinded Dunbar, is the sight value. Either he has it, or he doesn't. I don't see his base character as being split like that. He's done some growing, but hopefully, that wasn't impossible even if he'd stayed sighted. 3. The Interrogation of Randy Lyman: It is satisfying, isn’t it? Not only does Dunbar get the job done, he uses it to make important points with The Boys Club behind the mirror. But again, we are shown what it costs him, when Lyman’s confessed and he’s leaning against the wall . . . the sound around him fades and we see his sense of accomplishment but also the exhaustion, his face haggard and strained. I have to wonder if, after a successful interrogation like this one, the Old Dunbar would have strolled out of the room whistling and ready for a beer with the guys. Then again, far more was riding on this interrogation than a confession.. (Almost had this one tangled with another interrogation, so hope I didn't do that elsewhere in this post). I don't know. I don't envision Dunbar as being that emotionally detached at any time. He has an obvious concern for people and a drive to help. But at least in the past, he had a support system around him, so bouncing back would've been easier and he'd have had companions with which to go have that beer. He wasn't - as he is in the Pilot - an army of one. So maybe Dunbar hasn’t changed all that much. He can still be who, and what, he wants to be . . . "I'm a cop." . . . it’s just going to take more concentration, stamina, and sheer guts than it once did. Maybe the major difference is, now, nothing comes easy. Maybe. But it won't be such an uphill battle all the time. He was getting established and forging a lot of new ground. So I think that a lot of his daily-battles are temporary. As soon as he's got the squad to back him, a lot of the major pressure backs off. And frankly, once something becomes routine, that's exactly what it is. The challenge will become the cases, just as it was. Kyt |
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Post by housemouse on Sept 13, 2005 12:14:01 GMT -5
I'll grant you that one at the outset, but it's not true at the end of the series, and will become less so as time goes on. So at best, for Dunbar, that's a temporary situation. He'll have more to prove on a regular basis than others, and that's new to him for a while, but only a while. I also don't see him in a defensive position since he so routinely nabs the offensive. At best he will be thought of as a capable, if blind detective. There is just no getting around the fact that whoever he deals with, including his immediate co-workers will always see him that way. His life is forever divided into "before" and "after" and there is no way for anyone ever to forget that. It is sad but true. He "routinely nabs the offensive" to avoid being put in a defensive position. Basically, the only way I can "separate" sighted Dunbar from blinded Dunbar, is the sight value. Either he has it, or he doesn't. I don't see his base character as being split like that. He's done some growing, but hopefully, that wasn't impossible even if he'd stayed sighted. I think is impossible to go through something like that and not have it change who you are. When one of the biggest ways one interacts with the world is suddenly (and violently) taken away, that changes everything. Again, it is the before and after thing, there is a clear dividing line, and there is really no way for Jim not to be split. Even if he wants to be the same guy he used to be, it is impossible. |
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Post by mlm828 on Sept 13, 2005 16:56:43 GMT -5
kytdunne wrote:
I don't think Christie was in "attack mode" from the outset, although I'll grant you she sounds rather doubtful and not too pleased when she says, "Back on a homicide. . . ." However, when she says she's surprised "they" would assign him to a major case on his first day back, I'm not sure she's doubting Jim. Rather, the statement may have been intended as a comment on "their" preconceived notions of Jim's capabilities. In other words, she's referring to "their" doubts, not hers. However, Jim doesn't hear it that way. He has spent much of the day fighting everyone's preconceived notions of his capabilities and Fisk's efforts to relegate him to inconsequential cases, and her comment strikes a nerve. They both respond predictably, and the situation unravels from there.
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Post by kytdunne on Sept 13, 2005 17:31:11 GMT -5
At best he will be thought of as a capable, if blind detective. There is just no getting around the fact that whoever he deals with, including his immediate co-workers will always see him that way. His life is forever divided into "before" and "after" and there is no way for anyone ever to forget that. It is sad but true. He "routinely nabs the offensive" to avoid being put in a defensive position. Are you saying that the first and foremost defining aspect of Dunbar will forever be his blindness? Or are you saying that because he's blind, he will only amount to 'capable'? Bettancourt forgot he was blind when she was going to draw a picture for him. She's not thinking of him as a blind man, she's thinking of him as a detective. So, if Dunbar's on the offense, he's not *always* on the defense, is he. I think is impossible to go through something like that and not have it change who you are. When one of the biggest ways one interacts with the world is suddenly (and violently) taken away, that changes everything. Again, it is the before and after thing, there is a clear dividing line, and there is really no way for Jim not to be split. Even if he wants to be the same guy he used to be, it is impossible. Okay, go with that. How has blindness changed Dunbar's base personality? How has everything changed so that he becomes a distinctly different man as a result of that clear dividing line? Kyt |
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Post by hoosier on Sept 13, 2005 18:02:35 GMT -5
Jim has had to learn patience if nothing else in the year since he lost his sight. I don't see him as a very patient individual--with himself or others--so that is one personality change that came as a result of his blindness.
One thing I notice in the Pilot is his growing frustration with the powers that be--the ones who have control, basically, of his job. He wants to prove he can still be a detective--they insist on putting him on petty cases--he resorts to giving a "white lie" on the Bodner case since she didn't fit the profile of the pross killer and he could get away with it --for a while. He took the Bodner case and ran with it. How could he prove himself if he wasn't given a decent chance and how could he buck everyone preconceived notions of his ability/disability he if can't prove what he was capable of?
Another thing--in the Lyman interogation, did Jim sort of present his gun when he leaned over the table? Was he presenting the gun in the hopes Lyman would try something and he could prove that he could handle himself? I know this seems rather far-fetched but I wondered. Lyman made a big deal of Jim's blindness with the other cops and maybe Jim thought he might be stupid enough to try something!
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Post by housemouse on Sept 13, 2005 19:55:30 GMT -5
At best he will be thought of as a capable, if blind detective. There is just no getting around the fact that whoever he deals with, including his immediate co-workers will always see him that way. His life is forever divided into "before" and "after" and there is no way for anyone ever to forget that. It is sad but true. He "routinely nabs the offensive" to avoid being put in a defensive position. Are you saying that the first and foremost defining aspect of Dunbar will forever be his blindness? Or are you saying that because he's blind, he will only amount to 'capable'? Bettancourt forgot he was blind when she was going to draw a picture for him. She's not thinking of him as a blind man, she's thinking of him as a detective. So, if Dunbar's on the offense, he's not *always* on the defense, is he. I am not saying that his blindness will always be his defining characteristic. I am saying that most people will see it that way. I am also not saying or even insinuating he will only "amount to capable." I just think that like it or not he will have to work harder. There just aren't too many blind cops out there, he is blazing a new trail. Trailblazers have it harder than the people who follow on the trail. I think is impossible to go through something like that and not have it change who you are. When one of the biggest ways one interacts with the world is suddenly (and violently) taken away, that changes everything. Again, it is the before and after thing, there is a clear dividing line, and there is really no way for Jim not to be split. Even if he wants to be the same guy he used to be, it is impossible. Okay, go with that. How has blindness changed Dunbar's base personality? How has everything changed so that he becomes a distinctly different man as a result of that clear dividing line? Kyt His base personality may not be different, but heck it may be. We all are the person we are because of what we have done and where we have been. There are points in my life that I look at as "before and after" and I can honestly say that had some things gone differently I would not be the person I am. A huge event like that changes everything, there is no way it couldn't. When a basic part of what makes you who you are, or at least who you have always seen yourself as, is changed so dramatically, it changes who you are. If only by virtue of Jim having to change the way interacts with other people, his life will have to change, and drastically. When the way you interact with people changes, your personality, or at least the way you come across will have to change. I would suspect that had things gone the other way, a blind man having his sight returned, the affect would be the same. |
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Post by kytdunne on Sept 13, 2005 22:52:06 GMT -5
At best he will be thought of as a capable, if blind detective. There is just no getting around the fact that whoever he deals with, including his immediate co-workers will always see him that way. His life is forever divided into "before" and "after" and there is no way for anyone ever to forget that. It is sad but true. I am not saying that his blindness will always be his defining characteristic. I am saying that most people will see it that way. His base personality may not be different, but heck it may be. When the way you interact with people changes, your personality, or at least the way you come across will have to change. I can't begin to unravel if you're saying Dunbar is forever divided (pre- and post-blindness) and everyone will always see him that way because no one will forget; or most people will see him that way because he's blind; or his base personality is split; or maybe his base personality has not changed; or if that's just the way he comes across to other people. I throw in the towel. Kyt |
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Post by kytdunne on Sept 13, 2005 23:13:03 GMT -5
I don't think Christie was in "attack mode" from the outset, although I'll grant you she sounds rather doubtful and not too pleased when she says, "Back on a homicide. . . ." I assigned attack-mode to her behavior based on how readily she had the ammo at hand. But if that's too harsh of a description, how about: astonishingly bad timing to bring up marital complaints. However, when she says she's surprised "they" would assign him to a major case on his first day back, I'm not sure she's doubting Jim. Rather, the statement may have been intended as a comment on "their" preconceived notions of Jim's capabilities. In other words, she's referring to "their" doubts, not hers. There was that possibility. For me, it went right out the window as soon as she followed it up with the rest of the things she threw at him. Kyt |
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Post by maggiethecat on Sept 13, 2005 23:22:17 GMT -5
kytdunne wrote:[quote]She pushes for some honesty? No she doesn't. When she gets the info that he's on a homicide case, she gets an attitude about it.
mlm88 wrote: (Sorry, I keep messing up this quote thing.)
I don't think Christie was in "attack mode" from the outset, although I'll grant you she sounds rather doubtful and not too pleased when she says, "Back on a homicide. . . ." However, when she says she's surprised "they" would assign him to a major case on his first day back, I'm not sure she's doubting Jim. Rather, the statement may have been intended as a comment on "their" preconceived notions of Jim's capabilities. In other words, she's referring to "their" doubts, not hers. However, Jim doesn't hear it that way. [/quote]
I'm just going to respond to this one for now, but, again, isn't it amazing that there's still so much to chew on?
Re Christie and Jim's homecoming that first night. I agree, mlm, she wasn't waiting for him in any sort of attack mode. The candles were lit, dinner was on the stove, there was enough salad to feed Coxe's Army, and she was anxious to hear about his day. Yes, Kyt, their marriage is very definitely troubled . . . but I still aver that their conversation deteriorates when she realizes he's "covering," that it's one more example of him not "letting her in." Honesty is a sore point with her, and that, I believe, is what sets her off. She was hoping (and you can easily infer this from her dialogue) that going back to The Job would work some sort of miraculous change in Jim, that he'd suddenly open up and start sharing with her, etc. It doesn't happen, and she's disappointed and hurt. There's a LOT packed into this one scene, isn't there?
Go back to her behavior at the beginning of the episode, and her expression as she watches him leave that morning, actually wringing her hands (which I don't think anyone's done since Lillian Gish). You sense her anxiety. So she's a little tense and anticipatory when he walks in the door, and he's tense and drained. Talk about a recipe for conflict!
Hey, I'm no Christie fan, but I also think the writers devised her to be interesting, to dump one more load of angst onto Jim's plate. Sweet and willing and whatever you say, honey? Would have been dead boring.
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Post by kytdunne on Sept 13, 2005 23:22:39 GMT -5
Jim has had to learn patience if nothing else in the year since he lost his sight. I don't see him as a very patient individual--with himself or others--so that is one personality change that came as a result of his blindness. Presuming he was impatient in the past, then yes, he's done some growing. One thing I notice in the Pilot is his growing frustration with the powers that be--the ones who have control, basically, of his job. He wants to prove he can still be a detective--they insist on putting him on petty cases--he resorts to giving a "white lie" on the Bodner case since she didn't fit the profile of the pross killer and he could get away with it --for a while. He took the Bodner case and ran with it. How could he prove himself if he wasn't given a decent chance and how could he buck everyone preconceived notions of his ability/disability he if can't prove what he was capable of? Right. And if he hadn't been slammed with so many stereotypes and had been given a chance, it could have all been done much more smoohtly. (But the show wouldn't have been as interesting.) Another thing--in the Lyman interogation, did Jim sort of present his gun when he leaned over the table? Was he presenting the gun in the hopes Lyman would try something and he could prove that he could handle himself? I know this seems rather far-fetched but I wondered. Lyman made a big deal of Jim's blindness with the other cops and maybe Jim thought he might be stupid enough to try something! It's been my take that Dunbar was setting Lyman up to try for his weapon. Not for the sake of the squad - though that was a great benefit - but to get Lyman where he wanted him. Kyt |
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Post by maggiethecat on Sept 13, 2005 23:26:29 GMT -5
Okay, Kyt, I really need to read the rest of what you wrote and then respond with more thought and not just off the top of my head, but I do agree absolutely with you that Christie is the Queen of Lousy Timing. If not the Empress!
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Post by housemouse on Sept 14, 2005 7:55:06 GMT -5
At best he will be thought of as a capable, if blind detective. There is just no getting around the fact that whoever he deals with, including his immediate co-workers will always see him that way. His life is forever divided into "before" and "after" and there is no way for anyone ever to forget that. It is sad but true. When the way you interact with people changes, your personality, or at least the way you come across will have to change. I can't begin to unravel if you're saying Dunbar is forever divided (pre- and post-blindness) and everyone will always see him that way because no one will forget; or most people will see him that way because he's blind; or his base personality is split; or maybe his base personality has not changed; or if that's just the way he comes across to other people. I throw in the towel. Kyt Dunbar is forever divided into two people - pre and post blindness. Even if people do forget he is blind, they will be reminded of it rather quickly, like Karen when she was going to draw a picture in Marlon's Brando. His base personality may or may not be split, but the point is, that whether or not it is, the way he is in the world has changed tremendously. |
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Post by kytdunne on Sept 14, 2005 16:38:14 GMT -5
Dunbar is forever divided into two people - pre and post blindness. So, wrapping this back to where it started: From this, can I can correctly conclude that you believe that we see "glimpses" of Old Dunbar in the Pilot, someone separate from the Current Dunbar? Even if people do forget he is blind, they will be reminded of it rather quickly, like Karen when she was going to draw a picture in Marlon's Brando. And if they are, so what? I'm not trying to be flippant here, blindness is an aspect of his being, it is not the man. His base personality may or may not be split, but the point is, that whether or not it is, the way he is in the world has changed tremendously. Whether or not his base personality has been dramatically changed is *precisely* the point I was trying to understand: Whether or not others believe it is so, or is not so. As I stated early on in this discussion: The only way I can 'separate' sighted Dunbar from blinded Dunbar, is the sight value. Either he has it, or he doesn't. I don't see his base character as being split. The fact that blindness changes how he has to do things is a given. Kyt |
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