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Post by kytdunne on May 8, 2006 5:39:20 GMT -5
Jim's response has often made me wonder if Terry made a habit of passing the buck or rationalizing situations by shifting the blame onto the circumstances or onto others so that it wasn't him at fault it was something beyond his control. If that were true, I don't think Terry would've had so much trouble coming to terms with the fact that he'd frozen. If he was habitually failing, he'd have had enough practice at lying his way out, to work his way beyond this one, too. Also, I don't envision Dunbar as putting up with that kind of partner for any longer than necessary, he'd have ditched Terry early on. Kyt |
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Post by Dreamfire on May 8, 2006 6:51:36 GMT -5
Kyt I would agree with you on the assessment of Terry and his failure to step up. Even Jim's comment of " you never know what you're going to do ..." suggests that he would not havebeen surprised if Terry HAD stepped up.
N
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Post by greenbeing on May 9, 2006 18:08:59 GMT -5
As for whether Jim Dunbar would have spent his time in the hospital hiding, afraid to show weakness... I'm not sure. I don't think he would have kept everyone out. If anyone, I'd think he would have tried to keep Christie and Terry both at bay. Her because they were obviously on shaky ground when this happened, though who knows whether they were on the uphill or downhill slide in their relationship. And him because, obviously. Probably not because he was saying, You did this, you did this to me. But more because he was angry, at himself, at Terry, at the whole situation, and frustrated, and chances were, if Terry had gotten within striking distance during the first few months (not saying he didn't stand in the doorway, though), he would have at least ended up with a black eye. But who knows, that might have been healing, for both of them. If they were 18 years old, maybe punching out the guy who wasn't hurt would seem like a satisfying move. But Dunbar's been through a lot on the force, and so has Terry. You really think Dunbar would want to punch Terry after being blinded? And if so, why didn't he take the shot later? Kyt Whoops, never noticed you replied to that comment. Would Dunbar have punched Terry, given the chance? Not for nothing, no. But provoked? Maybe. Jim's always struck me as a person who will react physically, if he thinks that's what needs to be done. Doyle? Doyle had done enough to the poor kid Jim was trying to help, that in the end, no amount of talking was going to snap him out. I can see the same thing happening with Terry. Terry wasn't about to get too close, regardless. If he did come, immediately after the shooting, I think he really could have provoked Jim into reacting physically, yes. Jim obviously didn't want to talk to him, so if Terry'd settled in and not left until he got his apology out, I think Dunbar would have tried to... remove him from the premises. Not for any blame, but because he was suddenly reduced to living within his own head, he couldn't get out, he was trying to figure out too many things related to how he was going to live his life, and he didn't need to deal with his ex-partner and his ex-partner's conceived pain. Attested to by what he told Christie later: "I've been so pissed off at that guy, not because... but because I thought he got off easy." But after an entire year of dealing with the blindness and coming to terms with it, I don't think Jim would have taken the shot in the locker room, like he might have if Terry had planted himself in the hospital room and tried the same ingratiating pleading he was up to in the locker room. After a year, Jim knew what was going on, he had his life almost back on track, he was back at work, things were working out, he was up and about, no longer filled with uncertainty on what he'd be able to do. He didn't have any reason by then to hit Terry, no. By then Terry was part of the past, probably something he was trying to forget. You don't lash out at things you're trying to forget. Forgetting means apathy. Jim had control of the situation in the locker room, he was uneasy, a little angry, but his anger didn't mount to a boiling point again over Terry until the night in Dr. Galloway's office (oh, to have Galloway realize that wasn't a slip! and let him talk about it!). --GB |
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Post by maggiethecat on May 9, 2006 18:45:45 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but in what parallel universe were we ever given any impetus to think that Jim would have punched out Terry given the chance? I'm with Kyt on this one. Given all we know about the characters -- and even all we can infer about the characters -- this one just isn't on the table.  Next? |
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Post by greenbeing on May 9, 2006 19:18:27 GMT -5
I'm sorry, but in what parallel universe were we ever given any impetus to think that Jim would have punched out Terry given the chance? I'm with Kyt on this one. Given all we know about the characters -- and even all we can infer about the characters -- this one just isn't on the table. Next? Not punched, that was just something that popped up in my previous post a week ago, that I didn't follow up on in this last post because that was one of those infernal exaggerations I find myself hardpressed to rid myself of--but I still think, guys being guys, who tend to resort to violence in extreme situations, and if being blinded and having someone come in and whine, "I was pinned down," at your bedside (as this was a hypothetical instance), is not an extreme situation, I don't know what is. If Terry had come in early in Jim's hospitalization, plopped down, and started whining about forgiveness then, that Jim would have gotten up, grabbed him by the arm, or the collar, or something, and forcibly removed him from the vicinity. Would Terry have left so easily if he knew Jim couldn't get away, if Karen hadn't been there to interrupt? You wind someone tight enough, and I think Jim's would not have just talked it out calmly. But no, I don't think he would have punched Terry, that was just a melodramatic reference, an exaggeration if you will, of what Jim's reaction would have been if Terry had shown up earlier to "get it off his chest." I had just meant that Jim would not have taken so kindly to Terry visiting him in the hospital, if he did. There's no way he would have been as laid-back as he was in the locker room. But "I'm not looking to start a fight" here, so in the future, I'll watch my mouth. I had not meant to infer an 18-year-old hormonal fist-fight. When Kyt took my off-handed comment that way, I thought I should clarify, as that was not what I meant. I guess my explanation was even worse. In reference to Kyt's question of my idiotic little (large) slip (exaggeration), I'd said, no, he wouldn't have just belted him unprovoked. But given the right situation, he would have "removed" Terry. I'll shut up now before I dig myself in any deeper. Like ya said: Next? --GB |
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Post by anna on May 9, 2006 22:11:49 GMT -5
I had never thought about Jim taking a swing at Terry, but - on the other hand - it's not that hard for me to imagine. Jim decked Doyle, whacked Watt, leaped at the Latin gentleman, assaulted Sonny, and was ready to rough up Russo. He's a physical guy. Why is it impossible to conclude that he might tackle Terry if Terry pushed him too hard at the wrong time?
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Post by kytdunne on May 10, 2006 23:01:00 GMT -5
I had never thought about Jim taking a swing at Terry, but - on the other hand - it's not that hard for me to imagine. Jim decked Doyle, whacked Watt, leaped at the Latin gentleman, assaulted Sonny, and was ready to rough up Russo. He's a physical guy. Why is it impossible to conclude that he might tackle Terry if Terry pushed him too hard at the wrong time? None of the situations are similar enough to the Terry/Dunbar quagmire to compare. Isn't that a lot like suggesting Dunbar would shoot a cop because he shot a thug? Kyt |
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Post by anna on May 12, 2006 9:06:38 GMT -5
I had never thought about Jim taking a swing at Terry, but - on the other hand - it's not that hard for me to imagine. Jim decked Doyle, whacked Watt, leaped at the Latin gentleman, assaulted Sonny, and was ready to rough up Russo. He's a physical guy. Why is it impossible to conclude that he might tackle Terry if Terry pushed him too hard at the wrong time? None of the situations are similar enough to the Terry/Dunbar quagmire to compare. Isn't that a lot like suggesting Dunbar would shoot a cop because he shot a thug? Kyt Nope. Dunbar's beating of Doyle (possibly) and leaping at the Latin guy (definitely) could be seen as being in the line of duty. However, his reactions toward Watt and Sonny and his readiness to take on Russo were examples of his willingness to express his personal frustration and anger through physical violence. |
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Post by maggiethecat on May 12, 2006 13:39:16 GMT -5
However, his reactions toward Watt and Sonny and his readiness to take on Russo were examples of his willingness to express his personal frustration and anger through physical violence. Readiness to take on Russo . . . hmmm. I'm not sure I see that as a propensity toward physical violence, since -- to me, at least -- it seemed pretty clear that Marty wasn't about to go for Jim's gun in the squad room with everyone watching. Did Jim really think Marty was going to try for it? Probably not. I put this down to male posturing, sort of like two roosters squaring off in the barnyard. Or not. Mags |
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Post by dogma on May 12, 2006 14:12:49 GMT -5
I put this down to male posturing, sort of like two roosters squaring off in the barnyard.  i , myself, prefer the method of dominance my male pygmy goats, chewbacca and wookie used, they peed on their beards,, not too many men can carry that off,, unless they are zz top, that is ;D |
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Post by anna on May 12, 2006 16:03:55 GMT -5
However, his reactions toward Watt and Sonny and his readiness to take on Russo were examples of his willingness to express his personal frustration and anger through physical violence. Readiness to take on Russo . . . hmmm. I'm not sure I see that as a propensity toward physical violence, since -- to me, at least -- it seemed pretty clear that Marty wasn't about to go for Jim's gun in the squad room with everyone watching. Did Jim really think Marty was going to try for it? Probably not. I put this down to male posturing, sort of like two roosters squaring off in the barnyard. Or not. Mags Oops, sorry I wasn't clear about the scene to which I was referring. I was talking about the locker room scene. |
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Post by mlm828 on May 12, 2006 16:11:18 GMT -5
Readiness to take on Russo . . . hmmm. I'm not sure I see that as a propensity toward physical violence, since -- to me, at least -- it seemed pretty clear that Marty wasn't about to go for Jim's gun in the squad room with everyone watching. Did Jim really think Marty was going to try for it? Probably not. I put this down to male posturing, sort of like two roosters squaring off in the barnyard. Or not. Mags Oops, sorry I wasn't clear about the scene to which I was referring. I was talking about the locker room scene. Well, actually, those two scenes are connected. In the Pilot, when Jim challenges Marty to take his gun, there's definitely male posturing going on -- we can feel the testosterone coming through the TV screen. But I think there's more going on in that scene. Jim has deliberately put Marty in a "no-win" situation. Both of them know it, even though Marty doesn't explicitly acknowledge it until the locker room scene in "Seoul Man." |
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Post by Dreamfire on May 12, 2006 19:12:19 GMT -5
But I think there's more going on in that scene. Jim has deliberately put Marty in a "no-win" situation. Both of them know it, even though Marty doesn't explicitly acknowledge it until the locker room scene in "Seoul Man." Ooh that IS insightful, I had not really thought of it like that before. Jim Dunbar intentionally places Marty in a no win situation? Natascha |
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Post by kytdunne on May 13, 2006 1:12:07 GMT -5
None of the situations are similar enough to the Terry/Dunbar quagmire to compare. Isn't that a lot like suggesting Dunbar would shoot a cop because he shot a thug? Kyt Nope. Dunbar's beating of Doyle (possibly) and leaping at the Latin guy (definitely) could be seen as being in the line of duty. However, his reactions toward Watt and Sonny and his readiness to take on Russo were examples of his willingness to express his personal frustration and anger through physical violence. The situations aren't comparable and only work to show us that Dunbar can use physical violence, which is no big surprise as it's part of his training as both a cop and a soldier. Kyt |
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Post by kytdunne on May 13, 2006 1:19:14 GMT -5
But I think there's more going on in that scene. Jim has deliberately put Marty in a "no-win" situation. Both of them know it, even though Marty doesn't explicitly acknowledge it until the locker room scene in "Seoul Man." Ooh that IS insightful, I had not really thought of it like that before. Jim Dunbar intentionally places Marty in a no win situation? Natascha It could be, if you believe Dunbar thought the situation through and responded because he could back Russo into a corner based upon his blindness. Dunbar's reaction was a basic response for figurative survival on the squad. He couldn't back down and expect to make it. Kyt |
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