A New Take on The Pilot

[hoosier]

housemouse said:

I don't recall saying that Dunbar did not have any flaws. I just thought his behavior, for the most part, was justifiable.

I agree. From his first stand with Christie about the need to go in to work on his own, he was having to prove to everyone that he could actually function. He was defensive, but who wouldn't be being questioned all day long about his ability and his right to be there? I am surprised that he was able to keep his cool since he does not seem to be the most patient of people. Then again, he has had to lean patience--the hard way.

[bjobsessed]

hoosier said:

housemouse said:

I don't recall saying that Dunbar did not have any flaws. I just thought his behavior, for the most part, was justifiable.

I agree. From his first stand with Christie about the need to go in to work on his own, he was having to prove to everyone that he could actually function. He was defensive, but who wouldn't be being questioned all day long about his ability and his right to be there? I am surprised that he was able to keep his cool since he does not seem to be the most patient of people. Then again, he has had to lean patience--the hard way.

And how patient did he have to be not only in the pilot,but all the way through the series with, "Like totally blind?" That kind of stuff drives you crazy unless you learn to deal with it.

[maggiethecat]

hoosier said:

housemouse said:

I don't recall saying that Dunbar did not have any flaws. I just thought his behavior, for the most part, was justifiable.

I agree. From his first stand with Christie about the need to go in to work on his own, he was having to prove to everyone that he could actually function. He was defensive, but who wouldn't be being questioned all day long about his ability and his right to be there? I am surprised that he was able to keep his cool since he does not seem to be the most patient of people. Then again, he has had to learn patience--the hard way.

Amen, and as for Jim's disastrous dealings with Christie that first night?



Let's start with the fact that she's been married to him for five years, so she had to have known that he basically keeps everything close to the vest. It's who he is (probably that men from Mars, women from Venus thing). She walks into the kitchen and -- unless she's brain dead -- can sense from his body language and tone of voice that he's drained, exhausted, tense as Hell, and covering. So what does she do? She pushes. She nags. She needles. She hits him with more doubt and suspicion, after a day of getting exactly that from everyone around him. Nice.

Did she really imagine that after one day back on the job he'd open up to every thought, emotion, and fear? Why didn't she just hold her tongue, put dinner on the table, and try to get the real story out of him later? Because there goes the drama? Or because the writers, in their desire to load so much onto Jim's "plate" that his knees buckled, wouldn't even give him the respite of home and hearth and loving wife?

So, as originally posited, did our perceptions of the characters change from The Pilot throughout the rest of the series, or were they established at the outset?

Miz Dunbar? Never did absolutely warm up to the women after she slammed him that first night. And that crack about him needing not her but his dog? Below the belt, darlin'. Small wonder Jim went into full retreat mode . . . .



Was anyone out there 100% in the Christie camp after The Pilot? I kept thinking of the two sisters in the old fairy tale: every time one spoke, roses and jewels fell from her mouth. When the other spoke, snakes and hoptoads fell.

With Christie? I never knew if Jim was going to get roses or toads.

Nor, I suspect, did he.

[bjobsessed]

maggiethecat said:

Was anyone out there 100% in the Christie camp after The Pilot? I kept thinking of the two sisters in the old fairy tale: every time one spoke, roses and jewels fell from her mouth. When the other spoke, snakes and hoptoads fell.

With Christie? I never knew if Jim was going to get roses or toads.

Nor, I suspect, did he.

I never warmed up to her totally at the end of the pilot or ever. I have to admit, she did score some points in Doggone when she came home from her meeting to be with Jim when Hank was missing.

I know Jim could be difficult and was definitely not blameless, but she didn't seem to be in tune with how he might be feeling at the end of that first day. She said she felt like she was walking on eggshells around him. I bet he did too since he never knew what was going to happen with her. At least she knew what he was like.

[hoosier]

When you first met Christie,I felt like she was behind Jim 100%. Yeah, he was a little cold after he woke up from the nightmare but I would have just put that in the category of 'he's a man and they never want to show they have feelings' and that he was understandably nervous about going back to work. I mean, she did offer to drive him! But then ,when he came home and she just railed at him when he didn't feel like talking, whoa! I could see her point, she just wanted to know what his day had been like but I felt she could have been a tad more considerate and given him a some space and time and not thrown the 'you don't need me you need your dog' comment. She was hurt and she didn't care if she hurt him back.

I was never a huge Christie fan but understood her frustration. She was married to a man who obviously loved her but was unable to be totally open and honest with her. She wanted to share everything and he was unwilling to do that. I think Jim has changed, how much I'm not sure, but it is difficult for someone who has always been private to open up, even to a spouse. If Christie wants Jim to be more open she will have to being willing to be more patient and not let her frustration with him drive a wedge between them.

[maggiethecat]

hoosier said:

I could see her point, she just wanted to know what his day had been like, but I felt she could have been a tad more considerate and given him a some space and time and not thrown the 'you don't need me you need your dog' comment. She was hurt and she didn't care if she hurt him back.

Okay, Housemouse, maybe we are starting to repeat ourselves (a little, only a little), but to me Christie's almost schizophrenic behaviour is another example of how meticulous the writing in the show was. First we have The Good Christie, helpful, smoothing Jim's coat, watching anxiously with twisting hands as he walks out the door . . . followed by The Bad Christie when he comes home that first night and won't give her what she wants. As though one day back on the job would work a miracle and he would suddenly tell her all she wanted to know, suddenly "let her in." (It made her interesting, and it made Blind Justice more interesting -- how many shows in recent memory dared to give us uncomfortable characters that didn't reveal all at first glance?)

Kinda makes you think Dunbar went back to the squad room at dawn to memorize the surroundings for two reasons: to appear more highly functional to his co-workers (and, because as originally stated, this is a proud man), and to get away from the nagging wife.

Back to the original question. Did our perceptions of the characters change markedly over thirteen episodes? How about an informal poll?

Jim: Not me. I was in the cheering section from Day One (as I firmly believe the creators of the show intended).

Christie: Never did make up my mind. Every time I thought I liked her she blew it.

Marty: Sorry, but I never will be what you'd call a huge Russo fan, despite "Doggone." He was almost a "device," specifically designed as an irritant -- the all-important antagonist that fueled the drama -- and once he came around? The show lost a little of its edge for me, the edge that made it so compelling.

Fisk: Saw his POV from the outset, and liked him more and more with every episode. He was still a bit of a mystery at the end, which only made the character more engaging.

Karen: There was never a moment where I didn't like her, which may make her unique among all the characters.

Thoughts, anyone?


Mags

[Eyphur]

maggiethecat said:

Back to the original question. Did our perceptions of the characters change markedly over thirteen episodes? How about an informal poll?

Jim: Not me. I was in the cheering section from Day One (as I firmly believe the creators of the show intended).

Christie: Never did make up my mind. Every time I thought I liked her she blew it.

Marty: Sorry, but I never will be what you'd call a huge Russo fan, despite "Doggone." He was almost a "device," specifically designed as an irritant -- the all-important antagonist that fueled the drama -- and once he came around? The show lost a little of its edge for me, the edge that made it so compelling.

Fisk: Saw his POV from the outset, and liked him more and more with every episode. He was still a bit of a mystery at the end, which only made the character more engaging.

Karen: There was never a moment where I didn't like her, which may make her unique among all the characters.

Thoughts, anyone?


Mags

I have to agree with you Maggie. Especially about Russo. I was quite disappointed when he stopped being a jerk, as the tension he created was one of my favorite aspects of the show.

As for Dunbar. I didn't watch the Pilot when it aired (my roommate was watching something else and in the interest of keeping roommate harmony for my remaining 9 weeks of college and I didn't ask to change it.) so the first episode i saw was Four Feet Under while I was home for Spring Break. However during the week before I had read everything that I could find online about the show and so had become quite intrigued and I suppose somewhat predisposed to liking Dunbar. I now wonder how I would have perceived him had I actually watched the pilot on March 8th or if I had not researched the show and began watching from Four Feet Under with no expectations.

Christie I never quite knew what to think about. I didn't particularly like the dinner party scene in Four Feet Under so that may also contribute more than it should to my (still somewhat unformed) opinion of Christie.

[Duchess of Lashes]

maggiethecat said:

hoosier said:

I could see her point, she just wanted to know what his day had been like, but I felt she could have been a tad more considerate and given him a some space and time and not thrown the 'you don't need me you need your dog' comment. She was hurt and she didn't care if she hurt him back.

Back to the original question. Did our perceptions of the characters change markedly over thirteen episodes? How about an informal poll?

Jim: Not me. I was in the cheering section from Day One (as I firmly believe the creators of the show intended).

Christie: Never did make up my mind. Every time I thought I liked her she blew it.

Marty: Sorry, but I never will be what you'd call a huge Russo fan, despite "Doggone." He was almost a "device," specifically designed as an irritant -- the all-important antagonist that fueled the drama -- and once he came around? The show lost a little of its edge for me, the edge that made it so compelling.

Fisk: Saw his POV from the outset, and liked him more and more with every episode. He was still a bit of a mystery at the end, which only made the character more engaging.

Karen: There was never a moment where I didn't like her, which may make her unique among all the characters.

Thoughts, anyone?


Mags

Only my thoughts - you certainly don't have to agree with any of them!

Jim Dunbar - count me in! I took a seat in his rooting section from day one and never left! (That is not to say there wasn't an occasion or two where I would have preferred to crawl under that seat!)

Christie Dunbar - count me in the minority here but, as with Jim, I was in her corner from day one too. Did I always agree with the way she handled things? Absolutely not! There were definitely moments when her reactions seemed over the top, but I think that was the sign of a wounded character trying to find her way home too.

Marty Russo - antagonist! Toning down his criticism, he still seemed hell bent on proving that he had been right where Jim, gun issue or otherwise, was concerned. The few instances wherein he demonstated some level of understanding and concern were far overshadowed by a continuing necessity to prove his point. (I actually appreciated that they toned down his unending digs about Jim and the issue of his blindness - that is not to say that they took away the antagonism - witness, "He is on modified assignment. He's blind.) By taking away that dimension, though, it would have been interesting to see the progression of that relationship in a second season.

Karen - commanded respect and admiration. Although an early unwilling participant, she became the chief proponent of Jim's ultimate success on the job. To say that he could have done it without her would be an untruth. That is not to say that even she didn't have a moment where she fell a peg or two. Allowing her anger to interfere with her professional responsibilities gave rise to her overstepping the boundaries of good judgment.

Fisk - I have to admit he grew on me. I wasn't a huge Fisk fan at the outset; those moments of disrespect, especially without provocation, I found questionable for a man in his position. But, as he learned to understand, respect and admire the abilities of Jim Dunbar, I found I learned to respect him more for it.

Tom Selway - a perfectly likeable character who seemed to be grossly left out of the shuffle. I did like that he was not afraid on those occasions when he felt it necessary to separate himself from Marty. Although welcoming and supportive, there wasn't enough growth within that character to make him seem overly interesting and that was such a disservice!

[maggiethecat]

longlashes said:

Tom Selway - a perfectly likeable character who seemed to be grossly left out of the shuffle. I did like that he was not afraid on those occasions when he felt it necessary to separate himself from Marty. Although welcoming and supportive, there wasn't enough growth within that character to make him seem overly interesting and that was such a disservice!

My omitting Tom from my list just proved your point, longlashes! ;D

After The Pilot, I thought Selway was going to be more interesting, more "fleshed out," and more important than he was in the general scheme of things. Welcoming and supportive, yes, although after a while I deemed his support skin deep at best. Most of the time when Tom disagreed with Marty, or found his behaviour unacceptable, it was in the form of eye-rolling, which neither Jim nor Marty saw. Was he just amusing himself? Maybe. Or just not getting into the thick of things. In the end, I saw Tom's function primarily as comic relief.

Must think about the other characters more before I reply . . . .

[Duchess of Lashes]

maggiethecat said:

longlashes said:

Tom Selway - a perfectly likeable character who seemed to be grossly left out of the shuffle. I did like that he was not afraid on those occasions when he felt it necessary to separate himself from Marty. Although welcoming and supportive, there wasn't enough growth within that character to make him seem overly interesting and that was such a disservice!

My omitting Tom from my list just proved your point, longlashes! ;D

After The Pilot, I thought Selway was going to be more interesting, more "fleshed out," and more important than he was in the general scheme of things. Welcoming and supportive, yes, although after a while I deemed his support skin deep at best. Most of the time when Tom disagreed with Marty, or found his behaviour unacceptable, it was in the form of eye-rolling, which neither Jim nor Marty saw. Was he just amusing himself? Maybe. Or just not getting into the thick of things. In the end, I saw Tom's function primarily as comic relief.

Must think about the other characters more before I reply . . . .

Exactly right! After a very promising start, the first character to offer his hand and what appeared to be a supportive welcome to the 8th, Tom's character, apart from a few fleeting moments, was definitely relegated to the role of comic relief.

I do not agree, however, that Tom resorted to eye-rolling as a sign of his displeasure with Marty. He was actually quite verbal about it on occasion...., as evidenced in Seoul Man,

Tom: "Look what Jim did."
Marty: "What did Jim do? He got lucky."
Tom: "No, he had an open mind about everything."
Marty: "NO, he got lucky."
Tom: "You're wrong......I'm going run everyone involved with the case through BCI. You can sit your ass here and stew. That's going to do us a lot of good."

Unfortunately, though, much of the make-up of Tom's character was extremely superficial - no depth beyond the obvious - and other than the most memorable of moments in the locker room, nothing else about Tom Selway really stands out.

[mlm828]

A few comments on Marty and Tom.

Marty: He was absolutely essential to Blind Justice, in several ways: as Jim's antagonist; as a reminder of the kind of cop Jim had been before the shooting; and to voice the valid doubts about Jim's being on the job all. Throughout the series (at least, after the Pilot), he is the one character who consistently reminds us of the thousand pound gorilla in the room -- a blind man is working as a cop, and carrying a gun. Because he often had a valid point, I couldn't totally dislike him -- even when he made his points in way I found reprehensible.

Tom: In the Pilot, he was at least as skeptical of Jim as Marty, if not more so. Tom is the one who thinks Jim will not have to do paperwork (implying more work for the rest of them). He is also the one who tells Karen, after they come back from Lyman's house, that Jim almost got her killed. He is also the one who says, "I saw that coming!" when Jim suggests he and Karen interrogate Lyman. After the Pilot, however, he is much less vocal in his skepticism, for reasons which are not really explained. It isn't until "Under the Gun" that we learn he shares Marty's doubts -- at least about the gun.

[bjobsessed]

Jim: Liked him from the start. Maybe because I saw myself in him. Wanting something that he may or may not be able to get back. Working too hard at times to prove he could do it. Having to fight for every little victory in the eyes of his co-workers.

Christie: Kind of on again off again, but more off than on. As has been pointed out, Jim never knew what he was going to get from her. To be fair, she did say she'd been keeping a lot inside since he'd been shot and I'm sure she'd been through her own hell in the last year, but they both seemed to lack a real understanding for how the other was feeling.

Marty: I didn't really like or dislike him for most of the series. I understood people like him having come across many in my own life. Whether he was upset about a blind cop, the gun, or as we find out later, Jim's ability to solve cases and be 'right all the time', he was the villian that every show needs to create tension and drama. Frank Grillo did that very well. Even though, by the end, Marty had softened a bit, I think he would have found something to hassle Jim about. That was his personality. We were just getting a glimpse of what was underneath the disturber.

Tom: I liked him and always did although I really wish he would have stuck up for Jim on occasion and voiced his opinion about a lot of things. His silence drove me crazy.

Fisk: I didn't really care for him in the pilot. He was rude (No on wants to go out on the street with you). I realize that was probably true, but he just didn't have a professional tone throughout most of the pilot. I did grow to like him as the show progressed. He was a great Lt. He could be no nonsense, understanding, sensitive (he was both of these when Jim lost his gun), he balled them out when they needed it although I thought he waited too long to deal with Jim and Marty. That was probably for dramatic purposes and to establish the type of relationship we could expect Jim and Marty to have.

Karen: What can I say? Liked her right away. She was forced to partner with him, but was willing--reluctantly at first--to give him the chance he desperately wanted.

Last but not least Hank: Loved him all the way through. Perfect he was not, but he never questioned, never doubted, never said "I told you so," and most of all, he never said, " You're blind? Like totally blind?" He was just there ready to comfort Jim when he needed it.

[maggiethecat]

mlm828 said:

Marty: He was absolutely essential to Blind Justice, in several ways: as Jim's antagonist; as a reminder of the kind of cop Jim had been before the shooting; and to voice the valid doubts about Jim's being on the job all. Throughout the series (at least, after the Pilot), he is the one character who consistently reminds us of the thousand pound gorilla in the room -- a blind man is working as a cop, and carrying a gun. Because he often had a valid point, I couldn't totally dislike him -- even when he made his points in way I found reprehensible.

Tom: In the Pilot, he was at least as skeptical of Jim as Marty, if not more so. Tom is the one who thinks Jim will not have to do paperwork (implying more work for the rest of them). He is also the one who tells Karen, after they come back from Lyman's house, that Jim almost got her killed. He is also the one who says, "I saw that coming!" when Jim suggests he and Karen interrogate Lyman. After the Pilot, however, he is much less vocal in his skepticism, for reasons which are not really explained. It isn't until "Under the Gun" that we learn he shares Marty's doubts -- at least about the gun.

Wow! So many great talking points on a cold, snowy night. (I'll have to respond one at a time, since I never have gotten the hang of pulling quotes from multiple posts into one reply.)

Re Tom, I am with longlashes on her disappointment that the character was never used more effectively, or developed beyond comic relief. And yes, he did do more than just roll his eyes every time Marty let one fly, but it seems to me that his responses were not often as verbal as we in "the Dunbar camp" would have liked. This -- his wussiness, if you want to be harsh, or his unwillingness to get involved if you want to be kind -- was not what I expected from Selway after The Pilot. Absolutely, mlm88 -- Tom was as skeptical as Marty if not more so. His assumption that Jim was unable to handle paperwork was either insulting or ignorant, or maybe a combination of both. On reflection, isn't assuming that a blind person cannot possibly accomplish basic typing skills more insulting than questioning a blind man's right to carry a gun?!

Or maybe Tom Selway was just the Rick Blaine of the squad (I watched Casablanca the other night for the 500th time.) "I stick my neck out for no one." And he didn't. Did he ever stand up to Fisk on Marty's behalf? By the end of the series Selway hit me as the kind of guy who works his full twenty, puts in his papers, quietly goes to Florida to open a bar . . . and doesn't bother to keep in touch with his old buddies.

As for Marty, I agree that he was essential. To the drama, to Dunbar's battle for acceptance, and to keep pointing out the obvious for those viewers who had tuned in late. It didn't make me ever warm up to him, except grudgingly, but I have to agree with Eyephur that the show lost something when he "stopped being a jerk." (Just as I will always feel that the show lost something important when Galloway went away.)

Now off to talk about bjobsessed's reaction to Fisk.

[maggiethecat]

bjobsessed said:

Fisk: I didn't really care for him in the pilot. He was rude ("No one wants to go out on the street with you.") I realize that was probably true, but he just didn't have a professional tone throughout most of the pilot.

Hey, the guy started out with one strike against him when he pretended to be on the phone rather than greet Dunbar . . .



. . . but my attitude toward Fisk softened by the end of The Pilot, for three reasons:

1. Granted, it was Karen who pleaded their case (Jim wisely holding back, for once,) but he did let Jim interrogate Randy Lyman.



2. After watching the Lyman interrogation and being obviously impressed -- And why not? The newbie just closed a case the squad had been working on for months -- Fisk says to Dunbar, "See you tomorrow, Jim." I liked him for that one simple remark. It told me that he had accepted, at least conditionally, the fact that Dunbar was not going anywhere. It was an oblique "guy" way of saying to Dunbar, "You made it this far."



3. When Jim and Karen are on the street and he tells her that, had his former lieutanent partnered him with "a guy who couldn't see," he wouldn't have stood for it, there's more to this statement, I think, than Jim letting Karen know he understands her POV.



Dunbar knew exactly where Fisk was coming from in their first meeting. "No one wants to go out on the street with you" did not come as a surprise. The Old/Sighted Dunbar would not have wanted to go out on the street with the New/Blind Dunbar. After a yearlong fight to be reinstated, I think we can assume Jim had already encountered every comment Fisk threw at him, and worse. (Imagine the initial reactions from One Police Plaza, for example.) So I didn't see Fisk as rude -- just more than a little pissed that out of all the precincts in New York, Dunbar had landed at the Eighth. "Of all the gin joints in all the world . . . ."

bjobsessed said:

Last but not least Hank: Loved him all the way through. Perfect he was not, but he never questioned, never doubted, never said "I told you so," and most of all, he never said, "You're blind? Like totally blind?"

Karma to you for a late night laugh in the middle of a blizzard!

[awlrite4now]

maggiethecat said:

Back to the original question. Did our perceptions of the characters change markedly over thirteen episodes? How about an informal poll?...


...Thoughts, anyone?

Mags

Hello...is this thing on?


Yes, my impressions of the characters changed over time. Jim earned my respect after the first couple of episodes. Marty mellowed out as the constant nag by the end of the season. Karen bonded with Jim, and showed that she really was an intuitive detective. Christie was just so hot and cold, that I never did find common ground with her. Tom just seldom said what was on his mind; he is a "don't rock the boat" kind of personality for the most part.

I wonder if things had progressed to a season TWO if some people on this board would still be liking the show.

Jim would have gotten over agonizing about being blind; Marty would have cut back or stopped altogether harping on it.

Christie and Jim would have gone to the shrink and gotten over their bickering.

Jim would have no gun, and nothing for Tom and Marty to worry about in that instance.

Karen and Jim would have melded into a super team, and Fisk might have evolved as a really excellent team leader, as I have the feeling he already was.

Tom would still play the straight man to the squad jokes.

And possibly Jim's blindness would not have been the center of every facet of the show. We could have seen some excellent drama where that factor was beside the point. Shoot, we might have learned that the others in the squad had a personal life, too.

My question is, how much change in the characters would you tolerate before you lost interest and said the show was no good anymore?