A New Take on The Pilot

[bjobsessed]

maggiethecat said:

Dunbar knew exactly where Fisk was coming from in their first meeting. "No one wants to go out on the street with you" did not come as a surprise. The Old/Sighted Dunbar would not have wanted to go out on the street with the New/Blind Dunbar. After a yearlong fight to be reinstated, I think we can assume Jim had already encountered every comment Fisk threw at him, and worse. (Imagine the initial reactions from One Police Plaza, for example.) So I didn't see Fisk as rude -- just more than a little pissed that out of all the precincts in New York, Dunbar had landed at the Eighth. "Of all the gin joints in all the world . . . ."

You got me there. I definitely cannot argue with that. Jim had an answer for every comment Fisk threw at thim. He had obviously thought about it because all the answers were given with no hesitation on his part.

[Duchess of Lashes]

bjobsessed said:

maggiethecat said:

Dunbar knew exactly where Fisk was coming from in their first meeting. "No one wants to go out on the street with you" did not come as a surprise. The Old/Sighted Dunbar would not have wanted to go out on the street with the New/Blind Dunbar. After a yearlong fight to be reinstated, I think we can assume Jim had already encountered every comment Fisk threw at him, and worse. (Imagine the initial reactions from One Police Plaza, for example.) So I didn't see Fisk as rude -- just more than a little pissed that out of all the precincts in New York, Dunbar had landed at the Eighth. "Of all the gin joints in all the world . . . ."

You got me there. I definitely cannot argue with that. Jim had an answer for every comment Fisk threw at thim. He had obviously thought about it because all the answers were given with no hesitation on his part.

Except on one occasion....a marked hesitation on Dunbar's part.......and it is immediately after that exact quote from Fisk. To everything else preceding that moment, he had non-hesitant comebacks. But when Fisk says, "There isn't a cop in that squad who doesn't respect you and what you did at that bank but no one wants to go out on the street with you." ( I took particular exception to the change in Fisk's tone of voice when he said "you" - subtle, but there), it illicits a very different reaction from Jim.

The expression on his face, the hurt reflected there, the deep, cleansing breaths, turning his head away, the slight shake of his head, I think are all evidence he didn't see that one coming . Or perhaps he did expect exactly that and could only hope, to the point when the words were actually spoken, they wouldn't be thrown in his lap. Either way, it was a slap in the face, and as true as it may have been, it was an unprofessional one at that too, perhaps levied in a softer manner, but a slap nonetheless.









I felt for Jim at that moment...watching him attempt to hold his emotions in check and maintain his composure. His body language, as well as the expression on his face, said as much as his eventual response, if not more.

[Eyphur]

awlrite4now said:

Hello...is this thing on?


I wonder if things had progressed to a season TWO if some people on this board would still be liking the show.

My question is, how much change in the characters would you tolerate before you lost interest and said the show was no good anymore?

First off, I love the picture, it gave me a nice early morning laugh.

Secondly, you pose a very interesting question here. How much change would we tolerate? I would suppose that as long as the changes came gradually, we would keep watching. I've been trying to think of other shows that have changed considerable over the course of there run and have come up with a few positive examples. ER -is any of the original cast still left? It was a popular show back then and even with all of the cast changes and the changes in style (which are more gradual- but the earlier episodes do have a different feeling) the show remains popular. And M*A*S*H is another show that had a long run, although during it's first season is was not immensely popular it became so during the second season and though there were again cast changes and the tone of the show changes from the early episodes which were very comical in nature to the later ones which frequently were more serious or dealt with serious issues (as much as could be done in a half hour sitcom) and the final episode of M*A*S*H still remains the television program that was watched by the most people and that was 23 years ago when it aired.

Therefore I think Blind Justice would have kept my interest and the interest of others as new story lines evolved. There too perhaps we should conceder the long time popularity of other cop show (I mean how many version of Law and Order are there?) so with that and Blind Justice's own unique charms we would have kept watching.

I suppose the flip side of the coin would be Happy Days but as long as none of the cast of Blind Justice left the show, I think that could have been avoided.

[mlm828]

A few words in defense of Lt. Fisk. He's running a detective squad. They have a tough job to do. He's just been handed the hottest hot potato in the NYPD, and he doesn't have a clue what the guy can do. No doubt he shares the prevailing assumption that Jim will quickly wash out. Under these circumstances, was it really a surprise that he would confront Jim up front about going out in the field and carrying a gun and tell him, truthfully, that no one wanted to go out on the street with him? From Fisk's point of view, he wouldn't have been doing his job if he hadn't done so.

I agree this would have come as no surprise to Jim. He's been a cop for -- what, 10 years? He knows how he would have reacted, before the shooting, if a blind guy had been assigned to his squad. I'm sure he didn't expect Fisk, or anyone else, to be supportive when he first showed up at the 8th precinct. He said it himself, "All I want is a chance." At least Fisk gave him that.

[bjobsessed]

I don't disagree with anything anyone is saying about Lt. Fisk. I just thought he could have been a little more gentle or whatever the right word is, in his delivery of the "street" comment.

[maggiethecat]

Just a few minutes between shoveling out the car, shoveling out the walk, shoveling, shoveling, shoveling (we got over a foot and a half) to say a quick "Absolutely and thank you," mlm88. We go all around the corners and turn the pockets inside out . . . and you nail us for us in a couple of succinct paragraphs.

Yes, Fisk's "no one wants to go out on the street with you" remark was a blow, but not an unexpected blow. And, even though it hits Dunbar hard, you knew he accepted both the source and the reasoning. You bet he was a "hot potato," and the media was all over him. Of course Fisk was going to be cautious until he saw just what he had been handed. Did Fisk act professionally? Yes. And -- given the circumstances -- appropriately. As did Dunbar; he made his case, he rebutted Fisk's points as they were presented, and he got his chance, with the out that he'd leave if he was unable to do his job to both their satisfactions.

It's a tautly written and beautifully played scene, one of the most effective of the series.

[inuvik]

Wow, lots to respond to!

Like Eyphur, I viewed the show late. I knew I wanted to see it, so my mother was recording it for me from day one. But by the time I actually received it and watched any episodes, it was already on the bubble and likely to be cancelled. And I had been reading reviews and talking with others all along, so I knew all about it. So I don't know what I would have thought about the characters had I watched it week by week from day one.

About character change: IMO, the more change and character development, the better! That is why I watch shows, to see people grow and change. A focus on other characters' personal lives would have been most welcome. It would also have changed it from "that blind cop show" to "that cop show. Which one? Oh, you know, one of them is blind. That one". If BJ was more of an ensemble drama it may have helped the ratings too. Dare we dream--could it have been as popular, and had the longevity, of NYPD Blue?

I think it would still have been distinguished from other crime cop shows by the character development. CSI is all about the science; Law and Order all about the law, plots etc and not much about the characters.

One final point--I don't think shows with disabled main characters are all that popular. Ironside was I believe, but Second Sight, Sue Thomas: FB Eye, Longstreet, all the ones I can think of--I don't think any of them lasted very long. And why is that? Are we scared of seeing disability, worried it could be us?

An interesting discussion point then: Was BJ doomed from the start then by having a disabled main character? (regardless of his professsion, regardless of the gun, etc.)

Sorry if this seems too jumbled--lots of thoughts came to me today reading this thread!

[mlm828]

awlrite4now said:

I wonder if things had progressed to a season TWO if some people on this board would still be liking the show.

Jim would have gotten over agonizing about being blind; Marty would have cut back or stopped altogether harping on it.

Christie and Jim would have gone to the shrink and gotten over their bickering.

Jim would have no gun, and nothing for Tom and Marty to worry about in that instance.

Karen and Jim would have melded into a super team, and Fisk might have evolved as a really excellent team leader, as I have the feeling he already was.

Tom would still play the straight man to the squad jokes.

And possibly Jim's blindness would not have been the center of every facet of the show. We could have seen some excellent drama where that factor was beside the point. Shoot, we might have learned that the others in the squad had a personal life, too.

My question is, how much change in the characters would you tolerate before you lost interest and said the show was no good anymore?

I think there were still a lot of interesting places the show could have gone in a second season -- or more. Some revolve around Jim's blindness; some do not.

I think one fascinating issue that could have been addressed in a second (or later) season is whether the passage of time since Jim lost his sight, and the accompanying fading of visual memories, would have affected his ability to do his job. Based on my reading, it seems that at some point, he would have completed a gradual transition from a formerly sighted person who retained many visual memories and still relied on visualization to some extent, to a blind person who had lost most of his visual memories and for whom the visual had become largely irrelevant. I don't know the answer or how that would have played out, but it certainly would have kept my interest.

I don't think we had seen the last of the Jim-Marty conflict. Even if overt hostilities ceased at the end of "Seoul Man," in my opinion, they weren't far below the surface. It seemed to me there was always an edge to Jim and Marty's relationship, even after their truce. They might not have clashed about the same things, but I think there was still a potential for conflict between them. There might also have been conflict between Marty and other characters -- even Tom. In some of the later episodes, Tom seems pretty fed up with Marty (for example, over Marty's behavior toward the fireman, Dean Bostic, in "Dance With Me").

If the writing and acting remained at the same high standard set in the first season, I'm sure I would have kept watching.

[greenbeing]

bjobsessed said:

I've said it before, but you learn to adapt to your circumstances. I think both of them would have adapted just fine had they needed to--especially Marty. He was too much of a determined opinionated hothead. Someone would have figured out how to channel all that energy into adapting to a new life.

What a good point!

Makes you wonder what it would have been like if it had been Tom or Marty instead... Especially with all the parallels drawn between Marty and Jim before he was blind. Could put perspective on what Jim used to be like before he learned patience.

But you succinctly pegged Marty in this comment!

--GB

[maggiethecat]

bjobsessed said:

I don't disagree with anything anyone is saying about Lt. Fisk. I just thought he could have been a little more gentle or whatever the right word is, in his delivery of the "street" comment.

Great observation, bjobsessed!

Before I respond, let me announce that I moved the fascinating posts about whether or not the average viewer can "handle" a disabled lead character to a new thread in the Oddities and Analysis section, called, what else, "Disabled Leads -- too much for the viewer?"

Now back to Fisk.

Gentle he was not. Agreed. But in the end, wasn't he essentially doing Dunbar a favor with his bluntness? Oh, he could have been soft and kind and unctious . . . but would Dunbar have gained any sense of where he stood? Would he have known just what he was up against? Would he have had a true measure of the suspicion and doubt and downright prejudice he was going to face?

Maybe, just maybe, Fisk's acrid honesty was exactly the slap in the face Dunbar needed. To pull up his spine. To set his face against the world. To do what had to be done. To make this work.

I think Dunbar respected Fisk for his raw words. And maybe that's why Fisk's "See you tomorrow, Jim" is so bloody satisfying.

To Dunbar, and to the viewer.

But that's just me.

[hoosier]

You wonder how much advance notice Fisk was given that Dunbar was being assigned to his squad. A few things that seem to point at his not being really prepared--

1.partnering him with Karen- its a spur of the moment decision, if he had had more time to consider it wouldn't he have at least discussed it with Karen giving her the opportunity to voice her concerns and arguements? Sure,she was the one detective without a partner and probably figured it might happen but to have not even warned her of the possibility...

2. his squad was already involved in a multiple homicide with intense media coverage, wouldn't he have tried to argue that he didn't need another distraction that had its own media focus? Or did they just drop it on him? Why? As a test not only for Jim but for Fisk--grace under pressure sort of thing? Or did they feel that Fisk was the kind of person who would actually give Dunbar a fair chance?

3.his hiding in his office using the "I'm on the phone" excuse when Jim arrived. Almost like he was wishing he was anywhere but here doing anything but this. But Dunbar was here and he couldn't forestall the inevitable. He had to somehow incorporate him into the squad, fulfilling Jim's request to return to the streets while protecting his own people.

4. Pulling Jim into Karen's desk--maybe he was just trying to be helpful but jerking on a blind person's arm?

He was gruff, blunt and to the point. Maybe his own anger at having yet another problem dropped in his lap played itself out in his attitude towards Jim that first day.

[mlm828]

maggiethecat said:

Now back to Fisk.

Gentle he was not. Agreed. But in the end, wasn't he essentially doing Dunbar a favor with his bluntness? Oh, he could have been soft and kind and unctious . . . but would Dunbar have gained any sense of where he stood? Would he have known just what he was up against? Would he have had a true measure of the suspicion and doubt and downright prejudice he was going to face?

Maybe, just maybe, Fisk's acrid honesty was exactly the slap in the face Dunbar needed. To pull up his spine. To set his face against the world. To do what had to be done. To make this work.

I think Dunbar respected Fisk for his raw words. And maybe that's why Fisk's "See you tomorrow, Jim" is so bloody satisfying.

To Dunbar, and to the viewer.

But that's just me.

I agree with maggie that the first scene in Fisk's office is one of the best, and very well-done. But I disagree that he could or should have been "kinder and gentler." I simply don't think that would have been in character. Fisk is basically a pretty hard-nosed guy, not the warm and fuzzy type. I think he was being honest with Jim, and Jim probably expected no less. My impression was that Fisk was frank without being unnecessarily harsh -- even when he said "no one wants to go out on the street with you." He was simply telling Jim the unpleasant truth, because he had to.

"That said," I think the greater challenge for Jim on those first two days was not what Fisk said in their meeting, but what Fisk did -- assigning Jim and Karen to minor cases and pulling them off the Bodner homicide when he learned it was related to the "Tongue Collector" serial homicides. I think Jim's satisfaction when Fisk told him "See you tomorrow" came, for the most part, from overcoming those challenges.

[mlm828]

hoosier said:

3.his hiding in his office using the "I'm on the phone" excuse when Jim arrived. Almost like he was wishing he was anywhere but here doing anything but this. But Dunbar was here and he couldn't forestall the inevitable. He had to somehow incorporate him into the squad, fulfilling Jim's request to return to the streets while protecting his own people.

Everyone seems to think Fisk was pretending to be on the phone when Jim arrived. I'm curious: why does everyone think he wasn't really on the phone? When we see him in his office, he has the receiver in his hand, as if he's on a call. He doesn't have to pick it up and wave it around to make Jim think he's on the phone. Jim can't see him, anyway. I always thought he really was on a call and had just taken the receiver away from his ear momentarily to gesture with it. Besides, if he was hiding in his office to avoid Jim, he didn't hide for very long. Am I missing something here?

[anna]

Fisk's comments in that first meeting never really bothered me. He was saying what needed to be said, but I thought that he was saying most of it because of his concern for his staff. If you are a supervisor - or, at least, a good supervisor - part of what you try to do is protect your staff. You might be protecting them from a higher-up's anger, the accusations of someone in another department, threats of lay-offs, or - in Fisk's case - the possibility of one of them being hurt or killed if a new detective is not able to back them up in a critical situation. And Fisk is concerned not only for his existing staff, but for his new staff member, Jim, as well. He did the right thing.

[hoosier]

Fisk did what needed to be done. It was going to be a difficult first day for all concerned and laying it out for Jim was probably the kindest thing to do. His choice of words is sometimes questionable--"if you remember" and "be honest" stands out--and while he was just being honest, they seemed a tad bit cruel.

And the phone business--seemed like a good excuse, even the squad didn't seem to know he was on the phone untill they looked his way and he waved it. I assumed he was just using it as a delaying tactic until he was ready to face Dunbar. Have to take a closer look next time I watch the Pilot to see one way or the other. ;D