Up on the Roof

[mlm828]

hoosier said:

Terry didn't seem concerned about Karen's role in all of this. She knew what he did on the roof and she knew what kind of evidence Jim had that supported it , she was the one who found it. She wasn't obligated to Jim to sit on it and she was actually putting her own career in jeopardy if anything had gone wrong. She could have gone to Fisk with it. She had no past history with Terry so other than Jim being her partner, nothing could have prevented her from taking it in and bringing Terry down.

Terry was so focused on Jim and what he would do he doesnt seem to have worried about Karen at all. Or did he assume that Jim could somehow handle her, keep her quiet and make her toe the line?

While I agree that Terry probably wasn't thinking about Karen's role in these events, I have a different interpretation on some other points. First, I'm not sure that Terry "knew" what Karen knew about what happened on the roof, although he probably could have figured it out if it had occurred to him to do so.

Secondly, I don't think Karen was putting her career in jeopardy by going along with Jim's plan, for several reasons. I don't think he would have asked that of her, and I don't think she would have been willing to assume that risk. More importantly, I don't think Jim's plan involved any serious risk to his or Karen's career, because I am confident Jim would have gone to Fisk himself if Terry hadn't come forward promptly.

Finally, I don't think Jim "handled" Karen and got her to go along with his plan. It seems to me that they must have talked it over, either on the way to the river, or on the way back to the precinct afterward, or both, and she agreed with his plan. (Wouldn't we have loved to see that scene?) I also think she may have deferred to Jim somewhat regarding the handling of the situation, since it involved him more directly and personally.

[housemouse]

inuvik said:

I don't think that Karen (or Fisk) would have told. I think when Jim said that it wouldn't be secret for long, he meant that other cops would speculate. Why is Terry suddenly off the job? Why did what's his name go free? People would have known Jim's and Terry's relationship. People gossip--at least in my workplace they do, and I'm sure cops are no different.

If your speculation over Terry is correct, perhaps one drunk day in a bar he himself would have spilled the beans too, in a fit of guilt.

I agree. We are talking about folks who make their living as - detectives! If they didn't start asking questions and figure it out on their own, they wouldn't be very good ones. I think it is a good point that Terry might have "spilled the beans" on himself at some point. His conscious has got to be killing him and he might think getting it off his chest would help.

hoosier said:

I just posted this on the game as a -- for Terry Jansen and thought it might be an interesting topic for some discussion. Wonder why none of us thought of it before.

Terry didn't seem concerned about Karen's role in all of this. She knew what he did on the roof and she knew what kind of evidence Jim had that supported it , she was the one who found it. She wasn't obligated to Jim to sit on it and she was actually putting her own career in jeopardy if anything had gone wrong. She could have gone to Fisk with it. She had no past history with Terry so other than Jim being her partner, nothing could have prevented her from taking it in and bringing Terry down.

Terry was so focused on Jim and what he would do he doesn't seem to have worried about Karen at all. Or did he assume that Jim could somehow handle her, keep her quiet and make her toe the line?

I wonder if Terry just knows Jim so well that he assumes he has earned to total loyalty of any of his partners. I mean I am sure he was completely loyal to Jim and would go along with keeping his mouth shut about something like this. I think Terry looked up to Jim, he would have figured Karen would to and Jim would see telling as a betrayal - she would not betray him.

[hoosier]

Okay, Titus Oliver was a gangbanger and who knows what else ,but he seems to have gotten his life back on the right track and Jim's personal code of ethics would not have let him take the rap to cover Terry's or anyone else's heiny. Loyalty only goes so far and who knows why Terry assumed that Jim would cover for him when Titus' innocence came to light.

If I were Terry--scary thought!--I would have figured that Karen knew some of what was going on. Jim had to rely on her to get to the crime scene, heck, he needed her to visit me in the hospital and at my own house. Since Jim has the hankie, who got him back to the roof and helped him look for it??? Karen. And who drove him to the meet and was sitting in the car? Karen.
She might not know all the details but she probably knows enough and I might have to mention to Jimmy to be sure that his new partner is on the same page and won't run to Fisk or IA and burn my ass! Whew!

I am positive that Jim would have done nothing to hurt Karen's career. She had made it pretty plain that she didn't want to be 'held back'.It wasn't that long ago that she wanted to rethink their partnership. And I am also positive that he discussed it with her before they went to the park so if she had misgivings, I'm sure she would have voiced them. And mlm,I agree that would have been a great scene!

Terry did a lot of assuming that day--he assumed that he would get away with it, he assumed no one would question his story that known a criminal had shot him, he assumed that Karen either didn't know all the facts or would just follow Jim's lead and he assumed that old loyalities could outweigh morals.

[bjobsessed]

I think Karen knows pretty much what Jim is telling Terry. The look on her face while she is waiting in the car for him as he's talking to Terry says a lot.

[mlm828]

hoosier said:

Terry did a lot of assuming that day--he assumed that he would get away with it, he assumed no one would question his story that known a criminal had shot him, he assumed that Karen either didn't know all the facts or would just follow Jim's lead and he assumed that old loyalities could outweigh morals.

Here's a thought that has just occurred to me. What if Terry -- on some level, probably unconsciously -- wanted to get caught? After all, what's driving him is guilt.

[maggiethecat]

housemouse said:

I wonder if Terry just knows Jim so well that he assumes he has earned to total loyalty of any of his partners. I mean I am sure he was completely loyal to Jim and would go along with keeping his mouth shut about something like this. I think Terry looked up to Jim, he would have figured Karen would too and Jim would see telling as a betrayal - she would not betray him.

This is all starting to remind me of Watergate. What did he know, and when did he know it? It wasn’t the break-in, it was the cover-up . . . .

Terry’s modus operandi throughout “Up on the Roof” is that Jim will cover for him – “Were we not friends?” -- because he has before. For one solid year Jim kept the emotionally charged truth of what happened at the bank between the two of them (and, presumably, Christie). Was it a partner covering for a partner, the “blue wall” of silence within the brotherhood of the NYPD, or because opening up that particular can of worms would have been as hard on Jim – if not harder – than it was on Terry? Whatever the reasons, Terry comes into this situation believing that Dunbar will “be there for him” again, as he was in the past.

I can’t imagine that in Terry’s relentless self-absorbtion with his life, his guilt, his angst, and the events set in motion when he picked up Titus’s gun in the stairwell, he gave a second thought to Karen -- other to assume, as you pointed out, Housemouse, that Karen would go along with Jim simply because he was her partner.

It’s not much of a stretch for Terry to think that Karen will cover for Jim. It’s what partners do, which may be part of why Terry is so stunned, so undone, when, in their final meeting, Jim breaks that convention and refuses to play the game because another man’s life is on the line. This is no longer about the two of them, or even their complicated past. And that puts it in another category entirely.

Terry barely looks at Karen, or Jim, when he comes back to the squad to talk to Fisk. It’s over. End of story. He has to assume Karen drove Jim to his house, he has to assume Karen was with Jim he found the handkerchief, and he has to assume (if he didn't actually see her in the car) that Karen drove Jim to the river. He doesn’t know what Jim and Karen discussed in the car any more than we do (aah, another scene we would liked to have seen). But Terry has bigger worries than Karen, and what she knows or will tell. I believe she is, at the end as throughout the episode, below his radar.

[greenbeing]

I was just watching UotR before work and noticed a line I'd never heard clearly before: when they're all standing in the hallway at Bellevue, Glen Semple is talking to a uniform and says, "Ehhh, he wants to be a hero."

I'd never thought of what Glen must think of Terry! And perhaps, if even a dimwit like him noticed something off...

--GB

[maggiethecat]

And here's something I'd never noticed before -- Heh! -- and I wonder what you all think.

This is one line that has always bothered me, always hit me with a bit of a clunk. And, since we've all ascertained by now that the writers didn't put things out there without thought, there has to be certain subtext at work -- as there is through all of this tautly-scripted episode.

When Jim barrels up onto the roof and learns that Terry's been shot, after some back and forth, Terry says, "Thanks for being there for me, Jimmy." To which Dunbar replies, stiffly and edgily, the words almost forced out, "Heal up."




Thanks for being there, Jimmy? What, exactly, has Jimmy done? He grabbed DeShaun Oliver coming down the fire escape when Karen directed him to, and then -- presumably -- handed him off to a uniformed officer before coming up onto the roof with Hank. At this point, Jim has done . . . well . . . not a whole hell of a lot.

Is this Terry playing the emotional blackmail card at first chance? Working off their past emotional and professional connection as part of his twisted, hastily devised scenario? Has Jim already intuitively processed the sequence of shots as being not right? Even Fisk picks up on it: "Something to share, Jim?"

What did he know, and when did he know it?

Discussion-inspiring ex partners, indeed.

[housemouse]

maggiethecat said:

So here's my question. Thanks for being there, Jimmy? What, exactly, has Jimmy done? He grabbed DeShaun Oliver coming down the fire escape when Karen directed him to, and then -- presumably -- handed him off to a uniformed officer before coming up onto the roof with Hank. At this point, Jim has done . . . well . . . not a whole hell of a lot.

Is this Terry playing the emotional blackmail card? Working off their past emotional and professional connection as part of his whole twisted scenario?

Thought, anyone?

I have actually given some thought to this line in past (imagine that!). I think that Terry was assuming Jim rushed up there to make sure he was all right because of who Terry is (was) to Jim. Terry just figured that of course JD would come running - Terry was hurt! That "heal up" comment from Jim really meant "'meat of the shoulder', I could handle that standing on my head - try taking a bullet to the head! Kiss my ass you wimp!"

Honestly, I think Terry believes Jim is really broken up about this and he thinks that is just the way it should be.

[mlm828]

housemouse said:

maggiethecat said:

Is this Terry playing the emotional blackmail card? Working off their past emotional and professional connection as part of his whole twisted scenario?

Thought, anyone?

I have actually given some thought to this line in past (imagine that!). I think that Terry was assuming Jim rushed up there to make sure he was all right because of who Terry is (was) to Jim. Terry just figured that of course JD would come running - Terry was hurt! That "heal up" comment from Jim really meant "'meat of the shoulder', I could handle that standing on my head - try taking a bullet to the head! Kiss my ass you wimp!"

Honestly, I think Terry believes Jim is really broken up about this and he thinks that is just the way it should be.

I've given it some thought, too. My interpretation -- which is not so different from maggie's and mouse's -- is that Terry's statement, "Thanks for being there for me, Jimmy," reflects his belief that he has somehow "evened the score" between them by "getting shot." Of course, the irony -- and part of the subtext -- is that Terry wasn't "there" for Jim at the bank.

Jim's noncommittal and non-responsive reply, "Heal up," tells me he knows what's going on and he isn't buying into it.

[greenbeing]

maggiethecat said:

When Jim barrels up onto the roof and learns that Terry's been shot, after some back and forth, Terry says, "Thanks for being there for me, Jimmy." To which Dunbar replies, stiffly and edgily, the words almost forced out, "Heal up."

Thanks for being there, Jimmy? What, exactly, has Jimmy done? He grabbed DeShaun Oliver coming down the fire escape when Karen directed him to, and then -- presumably -- handed him off to a uniformed officer before coming up onto the roof with Hank. At this point, Jim has done . . . well . . . not a whole hell of a lot.

Has Jim already intuitively processed the sequence of shots as being not right?

What did he know, and when did he know it?

Presumably, if you have a rap sheet as long as Titus's, and you run UP to the roof, where there are quite often not a lot of escape routes, would you not lie in the wait for the officer persuing you, shoot him point-blank, then bugger off? All Jim seems to be going off of at first is Titus's previous behavior, and the fact that he's just learned Terry went up to the roof. Then, to quote Jeff Dorsey: "Pop, pop."

At that point, I doubt Jim was thinking of the sequence of shots. Perhaps Terry had been jumped by Titus and shot in self defense, then was shot back at. At that point, Karen runs off, Jim trusts her to take care, then either waits for a uniformed officer (hopefully!) or cuffs DeShaun to the fire escape and takes off running himself.

Hank barks. Jim, out of breath, stumbles onto the roof, calling for Karen, as Terry is most likely dead and can't hear him. "Over here! Terry's shot!" What a helpful description, right? The second Jim learns it was "In the meat of the shoulder; it'll be all right," he backs off, no longer concerned. Now he has time to think it over.

Why would Titus wait until he was so far away to shoot at the cop that his aim would be off? Besides, at this point, I bet this is where Jim realizes Terry shot first, as he's the first to broach the subject of the gun Terry used to carry. I bet he's just thinking of how much culpability Titus had, whether premeditated or in self-defense, as I'm sure that would carry some weight in court.

Did anyone else notice, when the shots were fired, Glen Semple sort of sagged in the window, almost rolled his eyes, more of a "oh, not again," rather than "uh oh, my partner just bit the big one." Perhaps Glen had Terry's new personality pegged pretty well.

Back on the roof, Jim is thinking of something. If nothing more than, how fortuitous for Terry to only get shot in one of the few places it's not going to do lasting damage. How is this possible? Was Titus's aim really that bad? If the kid was running, and so far away that Terry shot to try to stop him, why would he bother slowing down to shoot back, rather than diving for the other roof? And then they ask the question: "Who shot first?" And Jim knows that's not right. So why's Terry lying?

"Thanks for being there, Jimmy." As in: I was there when you got shot and couldn't do anything about it, and now here you are, and you couldn't possibly have kept me from getting shot, either, so we're now even? "Heal up." As in: You f**, what are you up to, now?

Perhaps Terry was thinking: Jimmy wouldn't talk to him earlier in the day, was still holding a grudge, Terry thought he couldn't have done anything more at the bank, so here was the only way out, to even up the score, not so much to play the hero, but to make Jimmy see how someone could get shot when you were right there, and you were powerless to help? And perhaps all he wanted was his old friend back, and if Jimmy could see how Terry couldn't have helped at the bank, they'd be friends.

Gotta love the scene in the hospital where Terry made sure, nonchalantly, all the evidence was in place. And for a moment, they were laughing, and Terry was on enough pain meds to think Jim was sincere, and that everything was back to normal, and the score was even.

--GB

[maggiethecat]

mlm828 said:

Jim's noncommittal and non-responsive reply, "Heal up," tells me he knows what's going on and he isn't buying into it.

It still amazes me, after all this time, how much can be read into one line of dialogue from this beautifully and specifically written episode.

I think Jim knows from the get-go that all is not right, that something is definitely off up on that Rivington Street roof. It's not something he gets immediately, or will even admit to himself -- he's still chewing on it back at the squad -- but it's enough to stiffen his demeanor markedly, so much so that Fisk intuits a change.

This, I think, is one of a number of subtle hints setting up the viewers to be on Jim's "side." Everything seems above board, cut and dried . . . but look at Jim's face. He's not buying it -- should we?

And how much did I love what Mouse said about Terry? Wuss, indeed. How much is it indicative of his cluelessness -- of his relentless narcissism -- that Terry somehow assumes he can play the Jimmy card and it will work? As though getting shot -- right -- in the meat of the shoulder would be the equivalent of a head shot to the temple? It's all about Terry and his perceptions.

Maybe I'm so hard on Terry -- and always have been -- because I have an admitted low tolerance for the self-absorbed.

[housemouse]

maggiethecat said:

I think Jim knows from the get-go that all is not right, that something is definitely off up on that Rivington Street roof. It's not something he gets immediately, or will even admit to himself -- he's still chewing on it back at the squad -- but it's enough to stiffen his demeanor markedly, so much so that Fisk intuits a change.

Because I realize that most of us have only seen this episode in passing, I need to point something out. As Jim and Karen arrive on the scene and the ruckus begins; the camera is watching Jim. The viewer hears the shots as Jim hears them and watches as Jim reacts to each one. It is very clear at that point that Jim is aware of the different weapon calibers and the order in which they were fired.

Jim walked up to that roof knowing which gun was fired first. The minute he heard the story of what happened he was dubious because he knew it was inconsistent. By the time he told Terry to "heal up" he already realized something was not right.

Could "heal up" just have been a line tossed off by Jim while he was inside his head trying to figure out what actually happened?

[mlm828]

It really is quite wonderful how all of the threads come together in this episode. I think Terry believed no one, not even Jim, would suspect him of shooting himself, for one basic reason: Terry is a cop, claiming to have been shot by a fleeing suspect. There's a very high probability no one would doubt or question his version of events.

It's been suggested before that Terry miscalculated, because he didn't take into account the fact that Jim was there. This is correct, as far as it goes, but I think there is more to it. It's not only that Jim heard Terry's gun fire first, it's what he did with this information. I suspect the pre-shooting Jim might have dismissed the possibility that Titus was telling the truth. Terry seems genuinely surprised, during their conversation at his house, that Jim would even consider believing Titus's version. Terry may be correct, after all, when he tells Jim, "This isn't the Jimmy Dunbar I knew."

All of this also ties in to the minister's comment to Jim, "I sense you know what it is to be treated unfairly."



This is, I think, one of the reasons Jim couldn't let Titus be wrongfully charged with shooting Terry, and it's also one of the ways in which Jim is no longer the Jimmy Dunbar Terry knew.

Edited to add: I'm also reminded of Karen's comment to Jim, as they're leaving Terry's house, that no one else is looking at Terry being wrong. This reinforces the idea that, despite his reinstatement, Jim is an outsider. This also brings to mind his comment to Fisk on his first day, to the effect that he can now go at things from a different angle.

[hoosier]

greenbeing said:

I was just watching UotR before work and noticed a line I'd never heard clearly before: when they're all standing in the hallway at Bellevue, Glen Semple is talking to a uniform and says, "Ehhh, he wants to be a hero."

I'd never thought of what Glen must think of Terry! And perhaps, if even a dimwit like him noticed something off...

--GB

I always assumed that Glen was refering to Jim when he said that because the uniform jerked a thumb towards Jim as he was coming in as a signal for Glen to shut up. But maybe he was thinking about Terry! Hmmm.

To me, Jim was more concerned about Karen than Terry when he charged onto the roof. She was his partner and Terry was not. Just because there hadn't been any more gunshots didn't mean something else couldn't have happened. It hadn't been all that long since Karen had been assaulted by Randy Lyman. And Hank was barking, picking up on Jim's anxiety about Karen and what was going on.

Jim asked Terry if "he still carried that 9mil?" so things were already churning around in his mind and not adding up. He knew what he heard and it didn't jive with what he was hearing from Terry. Karen later suggested that maybe Terry had switched the sequence to cover himself because he did shoot first but that it didn't make any to difference because Titus did shoot back. But like the chief told Jim in Seoul Man, did he ever know a perp to try and take out a cop if he could escape? If Titus was already on the other roof why?

"Heal up", pretty generic to me, not something you would tell a friend. Karen was right there. Terry had already thanked him for being there. He had to say something.