Past Imperfect

[doobrah]

kytdunne said:

doobrah said:

As for the scene with Greg at dinner, I just thought she was trying to be the perfect little hostess. Didn't read anything deeper than that.

So, having the guest serve himself and one of the hosts, is being a good hostess?

Kyt

Well, yeah, in this circumstance. If I had a friend over, or if my husband had a friend over, I'd let'em know to help themselves to the beer in the fridge, or whatever.

[maggiethecat]

doobrah said:

kytdunne said:

So, having the guest serve himself and one of the hosts, is being a good hostess?

Kyt

Well, yeah, in this circumstance. If I had a friend over, or if my husband had a friend over, I'd let'em know to help themselves to the beer in the fridge, or whatever.

You know, it's altogether possible -- I'd say probable --that we've spent more time on this than the writers did! Yeah, guys, get a beer from the fridge, no biggie was how it hit me at the time and on subsequent viewings.

What *did* hit me in that scene is how Miss Fashonista had no idea what "clean-up detail" meant, and had to ask what they were "cleaning up." Loved Jim's wry expression when he said, "Bodies." I guess Christie's never read much history or seen many war movies. What did she think they were cleaning up -- the dishes?! Very funny moment, and reinforced her intermittent cluelessness.

[kytdunne]

doobrah said:

kytdunne said:

So, having the guest serve himself and one of the hosts, is being a good hostess?

Well, yeah, in this circumstance. If I had a friend over, or if my husband had a friend over, I'd let'em know to help themselves to the beer in the fridge, or whatever.

I think there's a huge difference between having "a friend over" and having a guest you don't know. Behavior would alter accordingly. One would have to fend for himself and the other would be catered to. Wonder if that's a regional thing.

Kyt

[kytdunne]

maggiethecat said:

You know, it's altogether possible -- I'd say probable --that we've spent more time on this than the writers did! Yeah, guys, get a beer from the fridge, no biggie was how it hit me at the time and on subsequent viewings.

Yeah. It always happens that way when you start adding in multiple viewpoints. What's funny is finding out those things the writer agonized over (and I took as a given) and those that the writer threw in and *I* struggled with. Sometimes, it's because I didn't interpret the way the author hoped it would be read; other times, the author just threw something out and didn't realize the potential for underlying messages, such as...:

maggiethecat said:

What *did* hit me in that scene is how Miss Fashonista had no idea what "clean-up detail" meant, and had to ask what they were "cleaning up." Loved Jim's wry expression when he said, "Bodies." I guess Christie's never read much history or seen many war movies. What did she think they were cleaning up -- the dishes?! Very funny moment, and reinforced her intermittent cluelessness.

I thought Christie's question said a lot about the Dunbars and their relationship. There just seems to be so much they don't know about each other. Or, at least, so much Christie doesn't know about Dunbar.

Kyt

[Katryna]

kytdunne said:

doobrah said:

Well, yeah, in this circumstance. If I had a friend over, or if my husband had a friend over, I'd let'em know to help themselves to the beer in the fridge, or whatever.

I think there's a huge difference between having "a friend over" and having a guest you don't know. Behavior would alter accordingly. One would have to fend for himself and the other would be catered to. Wonder if that's a regional thing.

Kyt

I absolutely agree with you Kyt - my friends have the run of my house, but a "guest" is definitely catered to. I don't think it's regional - it's just good manners.

The point that has been brought up about Christie more or less playing up Jim's blindness in front of people so that she can make herself appear to be the doting wife is interesting. I think that is the case in the scenes with Hermanson, and am going to watch for it in other episodes. I have never been a fan of Christie and couldn't quite put a finger on it - maybe this is why!

[shmeep]

kathy said:

The point that has been brought up about Christie more or less playing up Jim's blindness in front of people so that she can make herself appear to be the doting wife is interesting. I think that is the case in the scenes with Hermanson, and am going to watch for it in other episodes. I have never been a fan of Christie and couldn't quite put a finger on it - maybe this is why!

Oh, I can't agree with this take. First of all, Christie was a good hostess throughout the meal (which was sprung on her without much warning, I might add) and only mentioned the beer when she was about to leave them on their own--and she was being extremely considerate by leaving so they didn't have to go out. Mentioning the beer just sounded to me like someone making a guest feel at home. Also, for all we know, she had just re-stocked the fridge and Jim didn't know they had any left. The way he goes through them, he might have had the last one the night before and Christie was subtly telling him she had been shopping. It seemed like a perfectly polite and natural way in which to behave.

And I really don't think she played up Jim's blindness in front of others. I can see how she might occasionally get a sense of importance out of finally being of some use to him in some way, but she seemed like she was trying to be subtle most of the time so he could at least look like nothing was out of the ordinary. Think of the way she walked with him. At the dinner party, she linked arms with him and, while she was the one leading, she made it look like he was just any guy escorting her to the table. And at the end of Marlon's Brando when they walked together, she just held his hand and guided inconspicuously so they could look like any other couple. This is not the behavior of a woman who is trying to draw attention to the help she offers to her blind husband. It's the behavior of a woman bent on making sure her husband feels as normal as possible.

And I always liked Christie. Didn't always understand her behavior, but figured with all she had been through, there was a good reason for it.

[shmeep]

And I know this was brought up a long time ago, but I forgot to respond to it.

kytdunne said:

That guess-who-I-am game: I still want to know how the hell Dunbar recognized the guy's voice 15 years later. Hermanson's voice and speech pattern didn't seem to be unique enough. Now, if you'd done the reverse, where it was Dunbar's voice that someone recognized 15 years later - I'd buy it.

I was wondering the same thing. Yes, Jim's voice would have been easy to recognize, but Hermanson had to say a bit more before Jim got it. I think that was why Hermanson started joking around with him, giving him a sense of his personality. That was when Jim suddenly made the connection.

kytdunne said:

Also, I didn't presume the squad had anything to do with that intro turning into a guessing game. They don't know much of anything about Dunbar's private life, much less that Hermanson wouldn't introduce himself if Dunbar wasn't likely to readily recognize his voice.

I never really assumed the squad was in on some big "Guess Who?" game either. I was just entertaining myself by pretending to think that for a minute. I'm sure Tom never thought about how awkward that would be for Jim and Greg assumed Jim would instantly pick up on who he was.

[kytdunne]

Another thought about Hermanson:

Do we *know* Hermanson knew Dunbar was blind before he saw him walk in? Except when Russo's specifically being a jerk, no one announces it like a routine weather report. And would Hermanson really have gotten the NYC cop news in Seattle?

So, say he didn't know. And rather than doing a mental reorganization, his intro was precisely the same as if Dunbar could see.

Kyt

[mlm828]

kytdunne said:

Another thought about Hermanson:

Do we *know* Hermanson knew Dunbar was blind before he saw him walk in? Except when Russo's specifically being a jerk, no one announces it like a routine weather report. And would Hermanson really have gotten the NYC cop news in Seattle?

So, say he didn't know. And rather than doing a mental reorganization, his intro was precisely the same as if Dunbar could see.

Kyt

I have wondered about this, too, without reaching a firm conclusion. It's possible that Fisk or Selway told Greg about Jim's blindness before Jim arrived. We know there was a conversation, because Fisk says Greg told them he had served with Jim in the Gulf War. If Fisk or Selway realized that Greg and Jim had not been in contact recently, it would have been in character for one of them to tell Greg about Jim's blindness. Also, Greg later tells Jim he's sorry for "what happened" to Jim, and he never asks Jim the obvious question about how he lost his sight. This may imply someone told Greg what happened.

If Greg had not been told beforehand, and learned of Jim's blindness when he saw Jim for the first time, I think the writers might have shown him reacting in some way when he realizes Jim is blind. On the other hand, Greg's reaction might simply be that of someone who is confronted with an unexpected and uncomfortable situation. Or, as I think Kyt is suggesting, perhaps he said what he planned to say all along, before he knew of Jim's blindness.

[kytdunne]

mlm828 said:

We know there was a conversation, because Fisk says Greg told them he had served with Jim in the Gulf War. If Fisk or Selway realized that Greg and Jim had not been in contact recently, it would have been in character for one of them to tell Greg about Jim's blindness. Also, Greg later tells Jim he's sorry for "what happened" to Jim, and he never asks Jim the obvious question about how he lost his sight. This may imply someone told Greg what happened.

Good point. Okay, so... what if Hermanson didn't know when he first met Dunbar in the squadroom, ending in the usual "hi" and giving Dunbar a moment to recognize him, then he kicks in with the verbal assist.

Later, Hermanson's got plenty of time to talk to anyone in the squad about what happened to Dunbar. Like, when they bring him the mug books?

Kyt

[doobrah]

kytdunne said:

Another thought about Hermanson:

Do we *know* Hermanson knew Dunbar was blind before he saw him walk in? Except when Russo's specifically being a jerk, no one announces it like a routine weather report. And would Hermanson really have gotten the NYC cop news in Seattle?

So, say he didn't know. And rather than doing a mental reorganization, his intro was precisely the same as if Dunbar could see.

Kyt

A lot of veterans are on this and that mailing list. So it would be easy to learn about someone from their regiment. Or since he made a trip to NYC, he probably did just what we all do -- Googled him!

[shmeep]

I feel pretty confident that Hermanson knew what had happened to Jim. I know they lived far apart and hadn't had much contact in recent years, but when something that big happens to a friend and is on the news (even if it's just the local news), word tends to spread.

Also, if Hermanson did enough research about Jim to find out where he is currently working, more than likely he had also come across news of the events that had brought Jim to that precinct.

But the most telling evidence of my point is that there was absolutely no hint in the episode that Jim's situation was new or shocking to Hermanson. There was a little awkwardness, but nothing to show any kind of reaction to that kind of news. Had such a scene taken place in the writers minds, it would have either been shown or specifically alluded to.

I suppose there is some room for doubt, since it was never shown, but I do not believe that to be the case.

[mlm828]

admin said:

But the most telling evidence of my point is that there was absolutely no hint in the episode that Jim's situation was new or shocking to Hermanson. There was a little awkwardness, but nothing to show any kind of reaction to that kind of news. Had such a scene taken place in the writers minds, it would have either been shown or specifically alluded to.

I suppose there is some room for doubt, since it was never shown, but I do not believe that to be the case.

Good points, doobrah and shmeep. I watched that scene again yesterday evening, and I agree with shmeep's comment, above. When Greg sees Jim walking into the squad room -- with Hank and wearing his dark glasses -- I saw nothing in Greg's reaction which indicates he's learning for the first time that his Army buddy is now blind.

There are several plausible theories about how Greg found out, but I, too, am pretty confident, after watching the scene again, that he knew before Jim arrived in the squad room that morning.

[kytdunne]

Okay, I'll buy that it was more probable that Hermanson knew Dunbar was blind before meeting him in the morning.

Kyt

[Eyphur]

Ok so I sat down tonight and forced myself to watch this episode, and I had (what is for me at least) a significant thought. Way back in the first post of this thread it was mentioned that Jim seems to laugh to long when Greg says he's been married twice. As I was watching it seems to me that the excess may be due to (poor) editing, because there is a change in the camera position in the middle of the laughter. I'm not sure how to discribe it, maybe someone else knows the technical term?