Blind Justice script cuts -- finally!!!

[Kasman]

At the risk of being totally off topic, I'd rather have Ash's weather than mine. The lowest max temp we've had out here in Central Woopwoop over the last nine days was 27.3C. Now while that's not hugely hot, it's only November, for gawd's sake!

[mlm828]

I think Karen's line about banging every female at the 2-5 was cut because there simply was too great a downside to making Jim a serial philanderer. It was essential to the show's success that viewers care about Jim Dunbar and what happens to him. The powers-that-be might have felt too many viewers would turn against him if he was a serial philanderer. In addition, the whole Jim-Christie dynamic would have been different if Jim had had multiple affairs. There could have been several scenarios: Christie didn't know about the affairs, or she did but pretended not to know, or she knew and stayed with Jim anyway, but the marriage was basically over. Any of these would have been much different from what we saw in the actual episodes, which was a couple trying to salvage their marriage. I think this was ultimately more interesting than the other possible scenarios.

As to whether Jim was a sexist, I'm kind of with matilda on this. He could be such a guy at times -- for example, wanting to protect Christie, or "taking care of" the situation with Nick by talking to Nick instead of Karen. But could it be called "sexism"? I'm not sure. As for his attitude toward women on the job, we don't really know what it was at the outset, when he was in no position to complain about being assigned a female partner. If he didn't want a female partner at first, that attitude had changed by the time he asked Karen, in "Under the Gun," if she'd still be his partner if he stopped carrying his gun.

P.S. The "Weather" thread can be found here.

[hoosier]

mlm828 said:

I think Karen's line about banging every female at the 2-5 was cut because there simply was too great a downside to making Jim a serial philanderer. It was essential to the show's success that viewers care about Jim Dunbar and what happens to him. The powers-that-be might have felt too many viewers would turn against him if he was a serial philanderer. In addition, the whole Jim-Christie dynamic would have been different if Jim had had multiple affairs. There could have been several scenarios: Christie didn't know about the affairs, or she did but pretended not to know, or she knew and stayed with Jim anyway, but the marriage was basically over. Any of these would have been much different from what we saw in the actual episodes, which was a couple trying to salvage their marriage. I think this was ultimately more interesting than the other possible scenarios.

How true. And they kind of left us hanging when you think about it. The only time the affair was mentioned outright, other than in the Pilot, was in FFU. We did see Christie watching Jim and Karen from the window (MB) and then later there was the comment she made to Galloway about not wanting to speak about certain things unless he agreed to take them on. It would have been nice if they had made an effort to explore this further.

As to whether Jim was a sexist, I'm kind of with matilda on this. He could be such a guy at times -- for example, wanting to protect Christie, or "taking care of" the situation with Nick by talking to Nick instead of Karen. But could it be called "sexism"? I'm not sure. As for his attitude toward women on the job, we don't really know what it was at the outset, when he was in no position to complain about being assigned a female partner. If he didn't want a female partner at first, that attitude had changed by the time he asked Karen, in "Under the Gun," if she'd still be his partner if he stopped carrying his gun.

At least Jim was no Glenn Semple!

[maggiethecat]

mlm828 said:

I think Karen's line about banging every female at the 2-5 was cut because there simply was too great a downside to making Jim a serial philanderer. It was essential to the show's success that viewers care about Jim Dunbar and what happens to him. The powers-that-be might have felt too many viewers would turn against him if he was a serial philanderer. In addition, the whole Jim-Christie dynamic would have been different if Jim had had multiple affairs. There could have been several scenarios: Christie didn't know about the affairs, or she did but pretended not to know, or she knew and stayed with Jim anyway, but the marriage was basically over. Any of these would have been much different from what we saw in the actual episodes, which was a couple trying to salvage their marriage. I think this was ultimately more interesting than the other possible scenarios.

Amen. What I love is that, by being somewhat deliberately oblique about Jim's serial cheating, the creators of the show left that aspect of his personailty open to interpretation: Was Jim driven to cheating by Christie's chilliness, or was he simply a sexist hound who liked to "nail" women simply because, as an attractive, charismatic, and powerful man, he could? A kind of "Why did you climb the mountain? Because it was there" scenario.

So . . . was Jim a sexist, or merely a product of his Red Hook/Gulf War/NYPD environment and upbringing? Did he accept Karen as his partner because at that point, he was damned glad for anyone who would partner with him? Did his sexism go out the window because of his overwhelming need to stay on The Job?

I wonder . . .

Does anyone else?

[Dreamfire]

Yes Maggie,

I too, wonder how deep the hound dog ran. Unlike some others though, I must admit I find a little bit of puppy quite attractive in a man, at least in a character.

In opposition to this, althought so very attractive Jimmy, acted almost... Geez I hate to say it... celebate. There was only one moment in the entire series when he seemed interested in sex or the oposite sex. And in that incident, he gave up so easily??? He chose to have his wife give up her seduction to look at a phone number?

No man I have known would do that, even if it had been the very first day on the job.

So he is an enigma in this respect.

As to his sexism, I think he had to subjugate it to accept Karen and then, pretty fast she turned into an asset. Truly I cannot see him walking around with a male sighted guide as a regular thing, (sorry I know I should but...) and she turned out willing to let him lead their cases. That would have to be a bonus, no rooster face off as he might have had with a male partner.

I suspect if there had been other women around we would have seen more of that sexism. Or perhaps now being in a minority considered less capable than the average guy he has learned something?

What do others think?

[maggiethecat]

ashatan said:

In opposition to this, althought so very attractive Jimmy, acted almost... Geez I hate to say it... celebate. There was only one moment in the entire series when he seemed interested in sex or the oposite sex. And in that incident, he gave up so easily??? He chose to have his wife give up her seduction to look at a phone number?

Um, I'm not sure what you mean by this! Celibate never seemed like an issue to me, although there were hints that the Dunbars' marriage had been on shaky ground sexually for some time. And as for the incident you mention, do you mean the "Good mooooooorning" scene at the beginning of "Marlon's Brando?" For a cop on call NOT answering the phone is not an option -- ever -- and he did try to "pick up again" after the call and Christie rebuffed him.

I've always thought that light interchange between Jim and Karen at the end of The Pilot was a little on the flirtatious side -- even though he demurs when she accuses him of trying to "put the moves" on. There is definitely a flirting element to the scene, and, at the very least, Jim is definitely aware of her as a woman. ;D

As for your comment about, now that Jim's a member of a minority, he's more capable of learning? Hmmmmmm. Right there, that sounds a little like the movie/TV stereotype that anyone "different" is somehow more sensitive, somehow more forgiving, somehow more in tune with the universe, etc. And what we all liked so much about this show was that (with the exception of the perps, who were pretty much from the Bochco stable of characters), this show managed to avoid stereotypes.

But that doesn't answer your questions, so the discussion goes on . . .

[Deleted]

maggiethecat said:

ashatan said:

I've always thought that light interchange between Jim and Karen at the end of The Pilot was a little on the flirtatious side -- even though he demurs when she accuses him of trying to "put the moves" on. There is definitely a flirting element to the scene, and, at the very least, Jim is definitely aware of her as a woman. ;D

I couldn't agree more here, Mags, with this - I thought the same exact thing. Absolute fliriting element, without a doubt.

[inuvik]

divinemrse said:

maggiethecat said:

ashatan said:

I've always thought that light interchange between Jim and Karen at the end of The Pilot was a little on the flirtatious side -- even though he demurs when she accuses him of trying to "put the moves" on. There is definitely a flirting element to the scene, and, at the very least, Jim is definitely aware of her as a woman. ;D

I couldn't agree more here, Mags, with this - I thought the same exact thing. Absolute fliriting element, without a doubt.

I know this is old ground now, we've talked about it before, but I for one totally disagree. Jim is just trying to get to know his partner in the same way that any sighted person would. He wants to know what she looks like. Perhaps so he can form a picture in his mind. I also think it was to get their relationship a little more friendly and personal, not just about work. Again, what any of us do with our colleagues.

[Deleted]

inuvik said:

divinemrse said:

maggiethecat said:

I couldn't agree more here, Mags, with this - I thought the same exact thing. Absolute fliriting element, without a doubt.

I know this is old ground now, we've talked about it before, but I for one totally disagree. Jim is just trying to get to know his partner in the same way that any sighted person would. He wants to know what she looks like. Perhaps so he can form a picture in his mind. I also think it was to get their relationship a little more friendly and personal, not just about work. Again, what any of us do with our colleagues.

That's an excellent point, too, innie and you're right on target. I just saw harmless flirtation - very teeny. But, I suppose if we all stood looking at a Picasso, we'd all have our own variation. It's a good discussion! ;D

[mlm828]

maggiethecat said:

Celibate never seemed like an issue to me, although there were hints that the Dunbars' marriage had been on shaky ground sexually for some time. And as for the incident you mention, do you mean the "Good mooooooorning" scene at the beginning of "Marlon's Brando?" For a cop on call NOT answering the phone is not an option -- ever -- and he did try to "pick up again" after the call and Christie rebuffed him.

I basically agree with Mags on this. "Celibate" seems like a bit of an overstatement. Still, the comments, "It's been a while," and "Too long," at the beginning of "Marlon's Brando" imply the Dunbars' sex life could have been better. However, I don't attribute Jim's answering the phone to a lack of interest. He had to fight very had to get his job back and is still trying to prove himself, so not answering a call from the squad would have been a very bad move. Anyway, all's well that ends well. Is there any doubt what is going to happen at the end of "Marlon's Brando" when Christie tells Jim to take her home?

maggiethecat said:

I've always thought that light interchange between Jim and Karen at the end of The Pilot was a little on the flirtatious side -- even though he demurs when she accuses him of trying to "put the moves" on. There is definitely a flirting element to the scene, and, at the very least, Jim is definitely aware of her as a woman. ;D

I agree that Jim is aware of her as a woman, but I'm not so sure there was much of a flirtatious element in the exchange. I think succeeding on the job was much more important to Jim than trying to put the moves on a woman who he knows is going to be wary of him. Still, old habits die hard. At least he can now fall back on the excuse that he was just asking for information.

It's an open question whether Jim has changed, or has had change forced on him. He can no longer spot an attractive woman across the room and decide she's going to be his next "conquest" (if that's what he did before). In addition, he needs his wife (and just maybe, appreciates her) in ways he didn't before, and he knows he's not going to get another chance if he strays again.