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Post by rducasey on Sept 3, 2005 22:35:49 GMT -5
Maybe this has already been discussed before and if so you people who are so good at analyzing "every little thing" can tell me what you think of this. In the opening scene of Leap of Faith when Karen comes into the locker room, she hesitates as she sees Jim. Then you can sense the nervousness in her voice as she asks him the question "Do you need a ride to Walter's party tonight?" and is clearly disappointed when he says "No Christie is picking me up." She says "Oh I have wanted to meet Christie." Not sure how true that is. It's then that she decides to bring a date. And why is she so clearly upset when Jim says "When's the wedding?" I get that she doesn't like being teased about it but is it more than that? Does she wish it were just the two of them going to Walter's thing? Does Karen have a crush?
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Post by shmeep on Sept 4, 2005 7:26:25 GMT -5
Wouldn't you? Girl's only human. I never got the vibe that she had any overt kind of crush that she would have considered acting upon, but she was clearly in awe of Jim much of the time and had gotten used to Jim needing her and the two of them being on their own quite a lot. Mention of his wife did seem to disappoint her for a moment, but she rallied with the polite "Oh good. I've been wanting to meet her" and she seemed surprised by the concept of Jim being able to offer her a ride because it meant his dependancy did not extend beyond work. It's hard to say what all was going on at that moment (although a lot obviously was). Was it related to a crush on Jim? Maybe, although probably on a subconscious level. I have no doubt that Karen, with her bad history of picking men, was looking to Jim as the kind of man she should have been holding up as an ideal. |
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Post by Katryna on Sept 4, 2005 8:01:24 GMT -5
Wouldn't you? Girl's only human... It's hard to say what all was going on at that moment (although a lot obviously was). Was it related to a crush on Jim? Maybe, although probably on a subconscious level. I have no doubt that Karen, with her bad history of picking men, was looking to Jim as the kind of man she should have been holding up as an ideal. You are right, what woman would NOT have a crush on Jim, or hold him up as a standard by which to judge other men. This is another story line that could be developed in Season 2. There are many little visual signs - the way he straightens his tie, the way she looks when he grabs her arm in Up on the Roof, etc. |
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Post by rducasey on Sept 4, 2005 9:46:01 GMT -5
It's funny that both Kathy and Shmeep call Jim the "kind of man she should have been holding up as an ideal" and "a standard by which to judge other men." Let us not forget he is not too far removed from his "womanizing" days, and Karen knows this. He's got some proving to do. But to respond to Shmeep's question about "wouldn't you have a crush on Jim" ABSOLUTELY!
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Post by shmeep on Sept 4, 2005 11:18:35 GMT -5
It's funny that both Kathy and Shmeep call Jim the "kind of man she should have been holding up as an ideal" and "a standard by which to judge other men." Let us not forget he is not too far removed from his "womanizing" days, and Karen knows this. He's got some proving to do. That occurred to me as I was writing that, but I had to acknowledge to myself that Jim, as he was when Karen got to know him, was a truly admirable man. He was still with his wife and working on the marriage, he was honest and brilliant on the job, he had made an amazing comeback after having been shot under trully heroic circumstances and, most telling of all, he never made a play for Karen. I think that last thing, above all else, was what made Karen trust Jim the way she did. It wasn't until after he told her he wasn't putting moves on her that she started to relax a little around him. I can only assume that she started giving him the benefit of the doubt at that point, allowing for him to have made past mistakes as long as there was no sign of any repeats. Something that stood out to me was when Nick asked Karen if Jim had looked into him. "He wouldn't do that!" "How well do you know him?" "Well enough." And that was all said while she was furious with Jim. At the end of In Your Face, when Karen tells Jim about her bad history picking men, I can see that little bit of wistfulness in her expression; the look of a single woman who finds a little too much to admire in someone she can never have. And since this thread can so easily encompass far more than one episode, I'm going to create a new place for it and move it over there so no one feels limited. Hope no one minds! |
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Post by housemouse on Sept 4, 2005 13:02:25 GMT -5
I don't think Karen has a crush on Jim. I think she looks to him like a big brother, a mentor if you will. She can see so she probably thinks he's hot, but I don't think she wants him. I think she would like to have a man like him, without the infidelity part, but not him.
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Post by mlm828 on Sept 4, 2005 14:35:48 GMT -5
What a great discussion! I've always thought the Karen-Jim relationship was one of the series' most interesting, but we haven't spent a lot of time on it until now.
I agree that Karen doesn't have a crush on Jim or, if she does, she would not admit it, even to herself. Does she find Jim attractive? Absolutely! How could she not find him attractive? I think she looks up to Jim and respects him. By the end of the series, their relationship has become that of a mentor and protege, but with a big equalizer: Jim's blindness.
A relationship with Jim -- beyond their working relationship -- would just have too much baggage and too many complications. Karen knows Jim's history, she knows he's married, and she probably has some loyalty to her friend Anne, whom Jim apparently hurt badly. Besides, let's face it, in spite of his many good qualities, the guy can be difficult, even infuriating, at times. In addition, their working relationship is important to Karen, and I don't think she would jeopardize it with an office romance. (Just think of all the ribbing they took in "In Your Face," when there was no romance between them).
Looking at it from Jim's point of view, he knows how lucky he is to have Karen as a partner, and he is smart enough not to jeopardize their working relationship by hitting on her.
The relationship between Jim and Karen, with its underlying sexual tension which they don't act on or even acknowledge, is much more interesting than a predictable affair.
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Post by Katryna on Sept 4, 2005 15:30:34 GMT -5
A relationship with Jim -- beyond their working relationship -- would just have too much baggage and too many complications. Karen knows Jim's history, she knows he's married, and she probably has some loyalty to her friend Anne, whom Jim apparently hurt badly. Besides, let's face it, in spite of his many good qualities, the guy can be difficult, even infuriating, at times. In addition, their working relationship is important to Karen, and I don't think she would jeopardize it with an office romance. (Just think of all the ribbing they took in "In Your Face," when there was no romance between them). This is a great point. I really didn't consider his infidelity when I said that any woman would hold him up as a standard by which to measure other men. I was thinking of him only since his return to work. And I have to admit that personally I am very cynical about men who cheat. I don't think it is that easy for people to change! Even RE in the TV Guide video interview said that he thought if Jim could still see, he'd cheat again. Of course, he can't see and that has changed his perspective on many things. He does tell Christie in Rub a Tub Tub that he is not that person anymore and will not put her through that again. "I promise". I think he meant it. |
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Post by kytdunne on Sept 5, 2005 1:45:40 GMT -5
I land so thoroughly on the side of "no way" that I just don't see any hint of a possibility of Bettancourt having a crush on Dunbar. No underlying sexual tension, either, unless you want to count Bettancourt's gripes of Dunbar being sexist.
I also don't see it in her response to finding out that Christie'll be at the retirement party. I think she's busy rethinking how she'll broach the 'I have a date, maybe a boyfriend' subject with Dunbar since they'll be meeting.
Kyt
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Post by anna on Sept 5, 2005 8:28:01 GMT -5
I also don't see it in her response to finding out that Christie'll be at the retirement party. I think she's busy rethinking how she'll broach the 'I have a date, maybe a boyfriend' subject with Dunbar since they'll be meeting. I agree. I just don't see it. To me, when she asked if he needed a ride, she seemed nervous, as in, "Please say no, because I want to bring Nick and I don't need company in the car with us." When he says that Christie is coming with him, she seems relieved, as in, "Thank goodness. Now how do I bring up the subject of Nick?" But, several people do seem to see it, so . . . I don't know. |
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Post by kytdunne on Sept 5, 2005 13:21:19 GMT -5
But, several people do seem to see it, so . . . I don't know. The thing about discussing interpretations is that people not only won't agree, we don't have to. The game is seeing how many variances there are and how far they can spread. Kyt |
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Post by mlm828 on Sept 5, 2005 14:20:16 GMT -5
I also don't see it in her response to finding out that Christie'll be at the retirement party. I think she's busy rethinking how she'll broach the 'I have a date, maybe a boyfriend' subject with Dunbar since they'll be meeting. I agree. I just don't see it. To me, when she asked if he needed a ride, she seemed nervous, as in, "Please say no, because I want to bring Nick and I don't need company in the car with us." When he says that Christie is coming with him, she seems relieved, as in, "Thank goodness. Now how do I bring up the subject of Nick?" But, several people do seem to see it, so . . . I don't know. I think part of her nervousness was, as Nick told Jim at the party, that she was nervous about Nick and Jim meeting. She looks up to and respects Jim, and his opinion matters to her. As she tells Jim after the party, she doesn't need his approval, but I think she would like to have it. In addition, she knows she has a "bad history picking guys," and she has not known Nick long enough to be sure that history is not repeating itself. When it turns out that history has repeated itself, the fact that Jim knew about it just made it worse, because she values Jim's opinion of her. (To Jim's credit, he immediately assures her on this point by telling her Nick didn't deserve her). |
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Post by hoosier on Sept 7, 2005 17:57:17 GMT -5
If Karen has feelings for Jim, they are definitely buried deep. I don't know if I would call it a crush--maybe more like admiration, but even that had to be earned and wasn't there in the beginning. She not only knew of his affair with Anne Donnelly,she is a friend of hers and evidently a close friend, so it was only natural that she would be on the defensive when she was first with him. She was shocked (thats the impression I got anyway)when Nick asked her if she had feelings for Jim. Nick had also asked Jim that but I think he glossed that over quickly(will have to watch that episode again to be sure). Karen has been on the receiving end of Jim's bad moods occasionally and has learned to recognize them plus call him on them when needed( like in Seoul Man when he was still mad at Marty and she called him on it). At one point, I think Karen felt that Jim was beginning to take her for granted. They have a rocky relationship, having had to learn each others borders and boundaries. I think she is proud to be his partner. Whether she would call herself his friend, if not at this moment, surely in the near future.
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Post by housemouse on Sept 10, 2005 10:55:26 GMT -5
I just watched Under the Gun. During the exchange between Jim and Karen, where Jim asks if she would stay partnered with him without the gun, Karen did not give the slightest impression that she has anything other than professional feelings toward Jim. Her reactions, the look on her face, her tone, her stance, they all were those of a co-worker talking to another co-worker, no underlying sexual tension at all.
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