A New Take on The Pilot

[spoony]

Why was Karen stuck with Jim? Were Marty, Tom and Karen a three-way partnership (so to speak)? Isn't it common practice for them to be paired up? In which case, were Tom and Marty already partners and Karen the odd one out?

[Duchess of Lashes]

I am not normally a sucker for begging, especially of the pathetic kind, but I'll make an exception this time since that really was a lot of awful work - and I happen to kind of dig the new title for the thread! So here's Karma for the Junior Admin!

[mlm828]

maggiethecat said:

We are back to Dunbar and Fisk and here's my question: Was Jim's relationship with the good lieutenant the most important in The Pilot? I say yes, as taken against the context of Dunbar's relationships with the other characters:

Jim and Christie: Troubled and complex, to be sure, but more to do with backstory and only peripherally verging on Jim's ability to do the job . . . and with Jim, to Miz Dunbar's eternal disenchantment, it's all about The Job. It's what he fought for, for a year. It's who he is. Get on board or get lost.

Jim and Marty: Acrimony, doubt, and suspicion, but if Fisk comes around so must Marty, if only to ensure the overtime in his pay packet.

Jim and Karen: Fisk assigned her to the blind dude and if she can't make it work what else will she do? She has to make this happen -- one day at a time, which is all Jim wants -- or put in for a transfer.

Bottom line? It's all about Fisk. If Dunbar can convince Fisk of his worth the others will come in line, as dictated by the chain of command. Fisk is the one.

Thoughts, anyone?

I agree that Fisk's willingness to give Jim a chance is essential. But I'm going to put in my two cents' worth to argue that Karen is at least equally important. If Fisk doesn't give Jim a chance, he basically has no chance, but the same can be said of Karen. She is the one who is going out into the field with Jim. He literally cannot do the job without her assistance. Investigation is basically information-gathering, and an entire category of information simply is not available to Jim. It would have been very easy for Karen to sabotage Jim, if she had wanted to do so. Considering that, from Karen's perspective, Jim had two or even three "strikes" against him before he set foot in the 8th Precinct, persuading Karen to accept a "day by day" partnership may have been his biggest challenge in the Pilot.

[Dreamfire]

You are one intelligent dudette!

When you first mentioned it I was in arguement mode - nah It's Karen, without her...

But you are right.

If Fisk had chosen to make sure he did not succeed th is is the one man who could have managed that by burying Jim in lost causes or influencing the rest of the squad to be problematic.

From what I gather about thew earlier eps from screen recaps and audio files etc:

taking another look at what appears to be a fairly thin and unsubstantial character, I see a whole lot of new things to respect. He did not pass judgement before he observed, even though he wanted to, he did not interfere or micro manage, he let Jim have it just like he would anyone else when he thought Jim was highjacking the case, ( did not go light because he was new or blind) .

Although he still demanded Karen and JIm hand over the leads for M&T to run on the toungue collector, he did not do anyting further to impede them once Karen had pointed out he WAS being unfair, so he learned also.

I am told inthe pilot he grabbed Jim and tried to move him, but in the later eps he is quiet considerate, talking when he moves etc so he has learned new behaviour himself.

Certainly in the later eps, he is very influential in protecting Jim for the one day he needed to find his gun, telling Jim his own "lost gun" story. He is always straight up with Jim which the others may not be.

And certainly this character could have been THE major obstacle.
Mags, I think you've hit a nail on the head here.

Natascah

[Dreamfire]

For some reason when I log on not all the posts are there straight away? Sometimes I answer and then an other pops up prior?

Oh well, RE: Karen

I agree, without her it would have been much harder. In one of the videos someone has used a moment where Jim is taking out his cane and she stops him and gives him her arm.

I don't know where it comes form but I assume it is really early in the series.

This few ooments says so mcuh. her body language shows the fight between - I don't want to get stuck with this blind guy - and It's really gong to cost me so little and mean so much to him. As a moment her decision and action here really start to define what a great personshe is. Later this is backed up by her standing up to marty that she is with Jim on something.

Back to that video m oment. Even Jim's dead pan face that that time is so touching, thi s obviously means a level of acceptance that is not just good but vital and the moment sticks in my midn. When he strokes her arm and pats it, before they step off the pure humanness of the gesture speaks volumes to me. He is still a tough and fairly abrasive man who is used to being needed not needing and his patting her is a thankyou from that identity that is so much more effective than a thankyou.

And for me it underlines his conviction in his own belief that he can make this work so long as he has some very basic support that is not even going to be that hard to provide.

Ah, I think I will have to go off and find that video again and watch it.....

Natascha
PS I agree that karen is the next most important, I wonder if we had gone into another series how this would have played out?

[maggiethecat]

ashatan said:

In one of the videos someone has used a moment where Jim is taking out his cane and she stops him and gives him her arm. I don't know where it comes from but I assume it is really early in the series.

Amazing how much you've gotten out of one moment used in a video, and without, presumably, the accompanying dialogue! The moment you reference is in The Pilot, and -- if you want to play spoiler before your videos arrive -- it's covered in the original Recap of The Pilot. (Try The Recap Place if you don't want to read any of the ensuing discussions.) Once you see the episode, I think you will discover that Jim is not patting or stroking Karen's arm; he's simply trying to guide it into the appropriate position for leading him. This is only their second day on the job together. Believe me when I say there's no comfy patting going on; they're all about business, all about the case, and at this point Karen is not the least convinced that their partnership has any sort of future.

[hoosier]

Fisk controlled if Jim could go out in the field. Even though he had stated to the powers that be and to Fisk that he wanted to be partnered up and continue being an active detective, I am sure Fisk could have found some way to keep him in house. Since he couldn't, he assigned him to cases usually given to a rookie, probably to get a feel for what he could and couldn't do and to give him a chance to get his feet wet again. If he couldn't cut it, he couldn't hurt himself or anyone else.

And Karen is essential. When Jim siad in Doggone that he didn't think he could do his job without Hank, he definitely couldn't do it without Karen!

[maggiethecat]

mlm828 said:

maggiethecat said:

We are back to Dunbar and Fisk and here's my question: Was Jim's relationship with the good lieutenant the most important in The Pilot? I say yes, as taken against the context of Dunbar's relationships with the other characters . . .

I agree that Fisk's willingness to give Jim a chance is essential. But I'm going to put in my two cents' worth to argue that Karen is at least equally important. If Fisk doesn't give Jim a chance, he basically has no chance, but the same can be said of Karen. She is the one who is going out into the field with Jim. He literally cannot do the job without her assistance . . . persuading Karen to accept a "day by day" partnership may have been his biggest challenge in the Pilot.

Absolutely, mlm, but I will make one more tiny point re Fisk's importance. I believe it's a given that whatever partner Jim was assigned would have had to do essentially what Karen did, apart from the normal back and forth discussions of whatever case they were working: the driving, the guiding, describing the scenes tersely and effectively. When Fisk assigned Karen to Jim, he did him a huge favor -- all unwitting, and no doubt because she was without a partner. Call it the luck of the draw. And the sense we are given at the end of The Pilot -- that Jim and Karen will take it day by day and give each other a chance -- is crucial.

But doesn't Jim's eventual success rest with Fisk? Fisk is his liaison with One Police Plaza, with the brass who didn't want him reinstated in the first place. You can surmise the number of phone calls back and forth: Is Dunbar cutting it? Is he closing cases and pulling his weight, or alienating his co-workers and getting in the way? So give Fisk credit for giving Jim time . . . and give him credit for never cutting Jim any slack. Do the job, toe the line, and don't expect any favors just because you're blind. Very refreshing, not to mention damned smart.

You can look at it from another angle: If Fisk hadn't been cool and circumspect in front of the squad -- treating Dunbar like any other tec -- how long do you think he would have lasted? Yes, at first Fisk pulls Jim off major cases, he expresses his doubts about the gun and his abilities to back up a partner, but by the end of the Pilot we know he'll give Dunbar a chance. And without Fisk in his corner it wouldn't have worked, no matter how supportive Karen was.

Another element in all this -- if I can dance beyond the boundaries of the Pilot -- is that Jim's assignment to the Eight has put Fisk under a magnifying glass. Every time Dunbar comes close to screwing up -- pulling his gun on a public street, winding up marooned in Hoboken -- here comes the Chief of Ds, swooping in like a vampire bat, to ruin Fisk's day and put him on the defensive. Black eye in the long run for Fisk if he doesn't make this work. Believe it.

Dunbar and Fisk have to forge a respectful and open working relationship -- everything depends on it.

[mlm828]

I don't disagree with your basic premise that gaining Fisk's support is absolutely essential for Jim. But I do part company with you on a couple of points.

First:

maggiethecat said:

I believe it's a given that whatever partner Jim was assigned would have had to do essentially what Karen did, apart from the normal back and forth discussions of whatever case they were working: the driving, the guiding, describing the scenes tersely and effectively.

I agree that Jim needed to have a partner who would do these things in order to succeed on the job. But there was no guarantee he would be assigned a partner who would do them. Karen didn't have to do them (except for the driving , she chose to do them. What if she hadn't made that choice?

Second:

maggiethecat said:

Another element in all this -- if I can dance beyond the boundaries of the Pilot -- is that Jim's assignment to the Eight has put Fisk under a magnifying glass. Every time Dunbar comes close to screwing up -- pulling his gun on a public street, winding up marooned in Hoboken -- here comes the Chief of Ds, swooping in like a vampire bat, to ruin Fisk's day and put him on the defensive. Black eye in the long run for Fisk if he doesn't make this work. Believe it.

I'm still not convinced it would have been a "black eye" for Fisk if Jim had failed, because everyone expected him to fail. But I love the visual of "the Chief of Ds, swooping in like a vampire bat"! ;D

[hoosier]

I wonder how accepting Jim would have been of a female partner before he lost his sight? I imagine when he arrived at the 8th that morning, he assumed that he would be partnered with a man . He got teamed up with Karen basically because she was the only available detective not already paired off. He could not afford to alienate her and ,when the issue of Anne Donnelly came up, you could immediantly see that he was on the defensive but was still trying to be pleasant--asking how Anne was etc. He was ready to take it one day at a time and only asked for the time and space to prove that he would be a good partner to have.

He never cut Karen any slack or asked for favors(aside from the ones that were a downright necessity) or even seemed to assume that she needed to be protected but, at the same time he could be impatient and sometimes downright condensending. Would he have been that way with a male partner--almost akin to Karen's accusation that he went behind her back with Nick precisely because she was a woman? Is that a little of what Terry had to live with?

All we know is that Jim had AN affair. How much of a ladies man was he? Did he have a reputation of love 'em and leave 'em or was Anne the one and only time he stepped out on Christie?

[anna]

hoosier said:

All we know is that Jim had AN affair. How much of a ladies man was he? Did he have a reputation of love 'em and leave 'em or was Anne the one and only time he stepped out on Christie?

We have a couple of things to go on. One is Maggie's memory of one of the original scripts having Karen saying the Jim had banged every woman in the 2-5. The other is the radio interview in which Ron describes Jim as being a player and Karen's friend as being one of the women Jim had an affair with.

I know that neither of these statements made it into the show, so they are not canon. However, it is clear that the actors were working with a backstory that included Jim cheating repeatedly. That had to have affected the way that both the writers and the actors approached Jim. I know that it affects the way that I look at him and at his relationship with Christie and with Karen.

What a character, to have us still trying to figure him out!

[mlm828]

anna said:

hoosier said:

All we know is that Jim had AN affair. How much of a ladies man was he? Did he have a reputation of love 'em and leave 'em or was Anne the one and only time he stepped out on Christie?

We have a couple of things to go on. One is Maggie's memory of one of the original scripts having Karen saying the Jim had banged every woman in the 2-5. The other is the radio interview in which Ron describes Jim as being a player and Karen's friend as being one of the women Jim had an affair with.

I know that neither of these statements made it into the show, so they are not canon. However, it is clear that the actors were working with a backstory that included Jim cheating repeatedly. That had to have affected the way that both the writers and the actors approached Jim. I know that it affects the way that I look at him and at his relationship with Christie and with Karen.

I wonder. . . Since the only affair we hear about in the series is the affair with Anne Donnelly, and the reference to multiple affairs didn't make it into the final script, it's possible the creators of the series decided to back off from the idea of multiple affairs. They didn't want Jim to be a saint, but maybe they didn't want him to be that much of a jerk.

anna said:

What a character, to have us still trying to figure him out!

You are absolutely right!

[anna]

mlm828 said:

anna said:

We have a couple of things to go on. One is Maggie's memory of one of the original scripts having Karen saying the Jim had banged every woman in the 2-5. The other is the radio interview in which Ron describes Jim as being a player and Karen's friend as being one of the women Jim had an affair with.

I know that neither of these statements made it into the show, so they are not canon. However, it is clear that the actors were working with a backstory that included Jim cheating repeatedly. That had to have affected the way that both the writers and the actors approached Jim. I know that it affects the way that I look at him and at his relationship with Christie and with Karen.

I wonder. . . Since the only affair we hear about in the series is the affair with Anne Donnelly, and the reference to multiple affairs didn't make it into the final script, it's possible the creators of the series decided to back off from the idea of multiple affairs. They didn't want Jim to be a saint, but maybe they didn't want him to be that much of a jerk.

Oh, I agree. I too believe that they decided to omit it from at least the first 13 episodes in order to increase the likelihood that the audience would root for Jim. (The plan seems to have worked for some of us. ) But Ron was still using multiple affairs as part of the backstory after the series already had started to air, and I imagine that the writers and other actors were using it during the fliming of the episodes. As part of the creators' backstory (not fic), I think that it can be legitimately taken into account (or not) when I consider the actions of the characters.

[maggiethecat]

anna said:

We have a couple of things to go on. One is Maggie's memory of one of the original scripts having Karen saying the Jim had banged every woman in the 2-5.

I cannot tell you all how many times I've kicked myself for deleting that email with the script inserts! However, I do remember that the line where Karen hits him with "banging every woman in the Two Five" immediately preceded Jim's line about how he had been going through a bad time in his marriage and making a lot of bad decisions. I remember this because I was struck at how removing that one line of dialogue didn't affect the flow of the scene -- it was a cut that worked. And, whether he'd had one affair or dozens, I think what we're meant to take away from that scene is Jim's clear sense of regret; he'd been stupid and immature and wasn't proud of it, and that made me like him.

In the end, the writers achieved a masterful balance between the heroic and the flawed elements of Dunbar's character. (I am still stunned at how much information they managed to impart in 42 minutes without ever resorting to expository dialogue or boring explanations.) It was enough of a black mark for Dunbar to have cheated on his wife, once, that we knew of -- and I agree that for him to have been an out-and-out hound would have tipped the scales to unsympathetic. (And we couldn't have that, now, could we?) But, somehow -- to me, at any rate -- the show always managed to present Jim's flaws in a way that only made him more sympathetic, more conflicted, and more likeable.

In retrospect, one of the things that made Dunbar so compelling from the beginning (in addition to Ron Eldard's wonderful performance), was that the writers created a fully rounded and complicated man -- a character that would have been strong enough to front a "straight" police procedural before being injured -- and then turned his life upside down. How uninspired it would have been to have Dunbar's blindness be his only problem; it was the complexity of the backstory (whether or not we were privy to all of it) that added so much depth and interest to the character.

[mlm828]

It seems a little odd to me that they set up the issue of Jim's infidelity in the Pilot and revisited it in the second and third episodes -- and then it basically disappears. Even when Jim and Christie decide to see a therapist, Jim's infidelity isn't mentioned. The immediate cause is Christie's feeling Jim is giving everything to the job and has nothing left of their marriage, and feeling she can no longer compete for his attention. But they can't have dealt with the issue, can they? Surely it isn't enough for Dr. Galloway to tell Jim he needs to devote as much attention to his marriage as to his informant, and for Jim to bring Christie flowers and promise never to do it again. I can't help wondering if they would have revisited the topic of Jim's infidelity in a second season, if there had been one.