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Post by Kasman on Sept 3, 2006 9:05:31 GMT -5
I was responding to your suggestion about Munchausen's Syndrome, which, if germane, would have had to have been a part of Terry's personality for some time. Maybe. There's many ways to view this, which is what makes the discussion so interesting. ;D |
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Post by mlm828 on Sept 3, 2006 16:16:02 GMT -5
I didn't think the suggestion was that Terry actually had Munchhausen's Syndrome, but that his attention-seeking behavior was similar to that of someone with Munchhausen's. Whatever we call it, Terry clearly was trying to get attention and recognition from Jim, the guy who (as has been said here) didn't want to be in the same area code with him (or was it the same time zone?). He even seems to think he's succeeded. When Jim comes to see him at the hospital, he doesn't recognize that the reason for Jim's visit is not to check on a fellow cop injured on the job, but Jim's doubts about his story about what happened on the roof.
Going back to the idea of Terry wanting to get caught, I agree he didn't consciously want to be caught. As mags points out, he tried all sorts of ploys to stay on the job. But I wonder. We may not have a whole lot of sympathy for Terry, but it's true, as he states, that he's suffered, too. His situation may have become unbearable. He has to go to work every day, knowing how he failed at the bank. What if something "jumps"? Will he freeze again? He tells Jim the guy who froze at the bank "isn't me," but does he really believe that, deep down? And does he really believe the justification he offers Jim ("I was pinned down -- I don't know what people expected me to do")? After all, Jim was in a similar position, and they both know what Jim did.
Edited to add: Can Terry deal with what happened at the bank and move on, without coming clean -- both to himself and to others -- about what really happened that day? It's interesting that Jim's resolution of the situation in "Up on the Roof" allows Terry to continue to avoid coming clean about what happened. I don't think for a moment that Jim was particularly concerned about what was in Terry's best interests. I think Jim's primary goal was to resolve the situation in a way that caused the least pain to himself. And I have no problem with that at all.
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Post by Kasman on Sept 4, 2006 2:17:49 GMT -5
I didn't think the suggestion was that Terry actually had Munchhausen's Syndrome, but that his attention-seeking behavior was similar to that of someone with Munchhausen's. Yup, that's what I meant. IWhatever we call it, Terry clearly was trying to get attention and recognition from Jim, the guy who (as has been said here) didn't want to be in the same area code with him (or was it the same time zone?). How about the same planet? Going back to the idea of Terry wanting to get caught, I agree he didn't consciously want to be caught. As mags points out, he tried all sorts of ploys to stay on the job. But I wonder. We may not have a whole lot of sympathy for Terry, but it's true, as he states, that he's suffered, too. His situation may have become unbearable. Definitely. And having failed once, the fear of failure can become worse than the reality. It can and obviously did play on his mind. Certainly from what has happened since the bank other people seem to have had doubts about Terry, else how would he end up partnered as he did. Edited to add: Can Terry deal with what happened at the bank and move on, without coming clean -- both to himself and to others -- about what really happened that day? It's interesting that Jim's resolution of the situation in "Up on the Roof" allows Terry to continue to avoid coming clean about what happened. I don't think for a moment that Jim was particularly concerned about what was in Terry's best interests. I think Jim's primary goal was to resolve the situation in a way that caused the least pain to himself. And I have no problem with that at all. ITA and ITA. And as Jim himself said, "I'd rather lose my sight than my courage." |
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Post by maggiethecat on Sept 4, 2006 14:28:56 GMT -5
I was responding to your suggestion about Munchausen's Syndrome, which, if germane, would have had to have been a part of Terry's personality for some time. Maybe. Maybe?! Have you ever known anyone with Munchausen's Syndrome? I actually have, and what a pain-in-the @ss Drama Queen she was.  The primary way in which Munchausen's presents itself is with medical dramas -- hospital stays which result in multiple tests for murkily mysterious symptoms, false tales of chronic and potentially fatal illnesses, using crutches when none are required. It's all about what shrinks call "secondary gratifiction," i.e. attention and sympathy they cannot garner in "normal" ways, such as from accomplishments or being a good person with a circle of caring and supportive friends. These people are twisted beyond measure, and openly needy in a way that beggars description. If you had ever known anyone with the syndrome, you would know that it is not something that is open to interpretation. And so I must ask again, do we have any evidence that Terry Jansen was anything other than a stand-up cop and loyal friend before the bank robbery? Not if you stick to the scripts. Terry's attention-getting propensities are entirely situational; they stem from a single event in which he failed to act in accordance with his self-image as both a man and as a cop. Dunbar stepped up, Terry didn't -- and so he devised a scenario in which he could at least appear to be the hero cop he wasn't. That ain't Munchausen's, not by a long chalk. ;D |
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Post by Kasman on Sept 4, 2006 15:28:54 GMT -5
Terry's attention-getting propensities are entirely situational; they stem from a single event in which he failed to act in accordance with his self-image as both a man and as a cop. Dunbar stepped up, Terry didn't -- and so he devised a scenario in which he could at least appear to be the hero cop he wasn't. That ain't Munchausen's, not by a long chalk. ;D Sure. I'm merely saying he was seeking attention and it could have been related to that. No need to take offence. Either way, the guy was screaming out for help that he never got. |
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Post by mlm828 on Sept 4, 2006 15:56:00 GMT -5
Either way, the guy was screaming out for help that he never got. This reminds me of another question I've often wondered about: why didn't Terry get help before, like after the bank robbery? When a traumatic event occurs, we often hear in the news that counseling is being provided to the first responders. Wouldn't it have been offered to Terry and the other survivors of the shoot-out at the bank? Would it have been mandatory, or could he have declined it? Of, course, if he had gotten help sooner, we wouldn't have had "Up on the Roof." By the same token, I love Jim's scenes with Dr. Galloway, but it always struck me as a little odd that Jim's psych evaluation occurred after he went back to work. I'd have thought the NYPD would want his fitness for duty to be evaluated before he went back on the job, carrying a gun. |
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Post by housemouse on Sept 4, 2006 16:12:02 GMT -5
This reminds me of another question I've often wondered about: why didn't Terry get help before, like after the bank robbery? When a traumatic event occurs, we often hear in the news that counseling is being provided to the first responders. Wouldn't it have been offered to Terry and the other survivors of the shoot-out at the bank? Would it have been mandatory, or could he have declined it? Of, course, if he had gotten help sooner, we wouldn't have had "Up on the Roof." Terry is a man, and men are loathe to admit they are affected by anything. Even if help was offered, he would have talked to the counselors, assured them he was fine, stuffed it way, way, way down, and moved on. Perhaps rather than a manifestation of Munchhausen Syndrome, this is a case of post traumatic stress. By the same token, I love Jim's scenes with Dr. Galloway, but it always struck me as a little odd that Jim's psych evaluation occurred after he went back to work. I'd have thought the NYPD would want his fitness for duty to be evaluated before he went back on the job, carrying a gun. Part of Jim's rehabilitation was probably working with a therapist to accept his new situation. I would agree that before putting him back out on the streets - carrying a gun no less - they would have done a thorough evaluation of his mental state. Maybe they did and the Galloway meetings were just a follow-up to see if his stable mental health continued once he was back on the squad. |
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Post by Kasman on Sept 4, 2006 16:17:46 GMT -5
Part of Jim's rehabilitation was probably working with a therapist to accept his new situation. I would agree that before putting him back out on the streets - carrying a gun no less - they would have done a thorough evaluation of his mental state. Maybe they did and the Galloway meetings were just a follow-up to see if his stable mental health continued once he was back on the squad. And if they hadn't done that, we wouldn't have had that lovely gradual unpeeling of the onion that is Jim. ;D |
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Post by Kasman on Sept 4, 2006 16:19:24 GMT -5
Either way, the guy was screaming out for help that he never got. This reminds me of another question I've often wondered about: why didn't Terry get help before, like after the bank robbery? When a traumatic event occurs, we often hear in the news that counseling is being provided to the first responders. Wouldn't it have been offered to Terry and the other survivors of the shoot-out at the bank? Would it have been mandatory, or could he have declined it? Of, course, if he had gotten help sooner, we wouldn't have had "Up on the Roof." It's possible that Terry just slipped through the cracks in the system. In the aftermath of the bank, Jim would very much be the first priority. |
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Post by maggiethecat on Sept 4, 2006 16:26:00 GMT -5
By the same token, I love Jim's scenes with Dr. Galloway, but it always struck me as a little odd that Jim's psych evaluation occurred after he went back to work. I'd have thought the NYPD would want his fitness for duty to be evaluated before he went back on the job, carrying a gun. Aah, mlm, we are so on the same page. Why would the NYPD allow Dunbar back on the job without ascertaining that he was psychologically fit on Day One? Maybe because it's not about reality so it's infinitely more satisfying dramatrically to send him back to work and then make us wait? Make us fidget while Fisk nagged and he resisted? Works for me. ;D |
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Post by maggiethecat on Sept 4, 2006 16:31:45 GMT -5
Sure. I'm merely saying he was seeking attention and it could have been related to that. No need to take offence. No offense taken, I assure you. It was just that, in the light of all that has been discussed on this board before you joined the discussion, the suggestion of an extremely rare psychological disorder as applied to Terry Jansen really did seem to come out of left field.  |
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Post by mlm828 on Sept 4, 2006 18:08:10 GMT -5
Terry is a man, and men are loathe to admit they are affected by anything. Even if help was offered, he would have talked to the counselors, assured them he was fine, stuffed it way, way, way down, and moved on. Perhaps rather than a manifestation of Munchhausen Syndrome, this is a case of post traumatic stress. You're probably correct that Terry would simply have claimed he was OK, but wouldn't a competent therapist -- especially one experienced in PTSD -- have been able to see through that? Another reason Terry may not have been receptive to help is that he might have feared he would have to come clean to the therapist about what happened at the bank. Part of Jim's rehabilitation was probably working with a therapist to accept his new situation. I would agree that before putting him back out on the streets - carrying a gun no less - they would have done a thorough evaluation of his mental state. Maybe they did and the Galloway meetings were just a follow-up to see if his stable mental health continued once he was back on the squad. That works for me -- whatever it takes to give us those scenes with Dr. Galloway!  I also recall that, in "Rub a Tub Tub," Fisk states that the Commissioner had determined Jim was fit for duty, which could imply he'd had a psych evaluation before returning to work. However, Jim was so resistant in his early scenes with Galloway that I had the impression he hadn't been in therapy before. On the other hand, his attitude could be attributable to his suspicion that the NYPD planned to use Galloway's evaluation against him. |
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Post by Kasman on Sept 5, 2006 2:15:58 GMT -5
Sure. I'm merely saying he was seeking attention and it could have been related to that. No need to take offence. No offense taken, I assure you. It was just that, in the light of all that has been discussed on this board before you joined the discussion, the suggestion of an extremely rare psychological disorder as applied to Terry Jansen really did seem to come out of left field. I'm just poking a hornet's nest with a stick.  |
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Post by Kasman on Sept 5, 2006 2:17:09 GMT -5
[quote author=mlm828 board=2 thread=1126962605 post=1157411290
You're probably correct that Terry would simply have claimed he was OK, but wouldn't a competent therapist -- especially one experienced in PTSD -- have been able to see through that? Another reason Terry may not have been receptive to help is that he might have feared he would have to come clean to the therapist about what happened at the bank.
[/quote]
As I said, he could well have fallen through the cracks.
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Post by maggiethecat on Sept 8, 2006 9:25:03 GMT -5
You're probably correct that Terry would simply have claimed he was OK, but wouldn't a competent therapist -- especially one experienced in PTSD -- have been able to see through that? Another reason Terry may not have been receptive to help is that he might have feared he would have to come clean to the therapist about what happened at the bank. I'm not sure that counseling would have been mandatory for Terry, or, indeed, that it is for any officer involved in a shooting. It may be personal choice if the officer is not obviously falling to bits. Karen is offered counseling in "Marlon's Brando" but it's not mandatory and she is able to decline, preferring a quiet talk with Jim and a walk to clear her head. Of course witnessing Condell's suicide is entirely different than Terry being involved in a protracted shoot-out in which a number of cops were killed and his partner was grievously wounded. But you can, I think, argue by implication that Terry kept up his facade about the bank with Internal Affairs, his new partner and the men he worked with; since he was still on The Job, I'd say that he was able to sell his lies to everyone but Jim and himself. So he might have been able to sell them to a shrink -- or the shrink saw through him and and it was all covered by doctor/patient confidentiality. Jim's job was on the line with Galloway and Galloway's report. Would Terry's job have been in such a precarious position if he'd gone for counseling after being involved in one traumatic event? Probably not, not unless he walked into the man's office in an obvious state of distress. All by way of saying that PTSD may have been a factor in what drove Terry to shoot himself . . . but let's not forget good old-fashioned guilt and Terry's desire to look like the hero he wasn't.  |
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The primary way in which Munchausen's presents itself is with medical dramas -- hospital stays which result in multiple tests for murkily mysterious symptoms, false tales of chronic and potentially fatal illnesses, using crutches when none are required. It's all about what shrinks call "secondary gratifiction," i.e. attention and sympathy they cannot garner in "normal" ways, such as from accomplishments or being a good person with a circle of caring and supportive friends. These people are twisted beyond measure, and openly needy in a way that beggars description. If you had ever known anyone with the syndrome, you would know that it is not something that is open to interpretation. 
