Doggone

[anna]

bjobsessed said:

One thing I have never understood is why Jim turns his head when Johnny or Luis say "You better not be messin' with me Sonny boy," and then it keeps echoing. It's like Jim's heard the voice before, but I don't think they ever say he does. Can anyone explain?

They usually do the echo thing when something is suddenly coming together in Jim's head - like when Christie dropped the coins or she described not being sure what is real in "The DaVinci Code." In this case, I assumed that he was realizing that Sonny might have known these guys and was setting him up. However, the echo when he picked up the library book in the Tuxhorn's living room did just did seem like something that they were trying to get the viewer to notice.

[greenbeing]

anna said:

In this case, I assumed that he was realizing that Sonny might have known these guys and was setting him up.

I don't think Jim was thinking Sonny set him up at all--only a few seconds before, Jim had said, "Is this a shake-down, Sonny?" So I figured they'd heard Sonny's name used, so they just used it themselves.

I never thought Jim thought Sonny had anything to do with the "Latin gentlemans." Although it occured to him that maybe Sonny'd been doing something with the coke and his cousin on the side.

[mlm828]

It could be both of the possibilities that have been suggested. Johnny's statement to Sonny could have been repeated to emphasize Johnny's voice and indicate Jim is remembering it. Then he recognizes Johnny's voice later in the episode.

It's also possible Johnny calling Sonny "Sonny Boy" was repeated to create suspicion about Sonny's role in all of this. I don't think Johnny and Luis would have heard Jim call Sonny by name. As I recall, Johnny and Luis are just driving up when Jim asks Sonny if this is a shake-down, and I don't think they would have been close enough to hear what Jim is saying.

After a lot of discussion of the topic on other boards, I finally concluded Sonny was not in cahoots with Johnny and Luis, even though he might have known them "on the street." It just seemed to me that setting up Jim would not be to Sonny's advantage, since he had a long-standing and apparently profitable relationship with Jim. In addition, a set-up involving Jim posing as the "blind drug dealer" so Johnny and Luis could obtain the drugs has too many variables and things that could go wrong.

Another interesting question is whether Jim believed the explanation Sonny gave when he finally turned up at the precinct. Earlier, when Marty questioned Sonny's role and pointed out there were too many coincidences, Jim just said he was sure Sonny would have answers. Sonny's explanation was plausible on the surface, and he answers Jim's questions, but I'm not sure that Jim believed him. I wonder if Jim's doubts about Sonny might have been a story line in a second season.

[bjobsessed]

mlm828 said:

I wonder if Jim's doubts about Sonny might have been a story line in a second season.

If wishes were horses.....

[anna]

Yeah, I agree that the echo could have been used for both effects. I don't think that Sonny really was setting up Jim or knew the guys. I think that Jim concluded the same thing later as events unfolded. I do believe that the "Sonny boy" comment made him have his doubts about Sonny, at least for a while.

[greenbeing]

Gaaa! I watched that part this morning--er, afternoon--before work, and you're right! The shake-down comment came before the guys pulled up, right after they opened the lockers and the stuff was gone. So I paid close attention, and low and behold, while the "Latin gentlemans" were there, no one did mention Sonny's name. Yet they knew Sonny's name...

So I have two theories--one is the writers made a mistake--it happens. Especially when you're filming things with such quick cut scenes, pasting everything together, hard to keep it all in order.

Or, they had planned to have something happen about Sonny setting him up. I mean, we never do see Sonny again, do we? Not for the rest of the season.

I never thought Sonny set him up, because of the good thing he had going with Dunbar--you never set up a cop you've worked with for five years--and Jim trusted him. If Jim trusts someone, I believe them. And I thought for sure Debbie was lying when she said Sonny was in on with them, just to throw them off her trail. And I figured it could have gotten back to Johnny and Luis on the street, that their coke was out there.

Now I'm just not sure... Kinda leaning toward a writer's faux pas, though. Because they never did follow up the double-dealing line, and I think if they'd meant it that way, they would have followed up.

Hmm... They did know Sonny's name, though...

[hoosier]

Exactly, they knew Sonny's name and that is why I am considering the fact that maybe he was a go-between for them and Bud. Of course with Bud murdered, he no longer has access to the dope. Deb does but Sonny wants to nail her--I guess no buses were handy at the moment --and get info on the murder and the all-important finders fee from Jim. Johnny and Luis however still want their dope and follow Sonny. Of course Sonny wouldn't want Jim to know he was involved with setting up a buy for the "Latin gentlemens". He wasn't involved in a set-up, he just "over-booked" so to speak.

Also, the OK corral comment by Sonny. Jim had told him earlier that his plan was a 'good example of his thinking too much' and that they had 'been through this before.' Wonder what happened? Another drug deal? Something must have happened or why would Sonny have made this comment!!! Second season

[bjobsessed]

hoosier said:

Exactly, they knew Sonny's name and that is why I am considering the fact that maybe he was a go-between for them and Bud. Of course with Bud murdered, he no longer has access to the dope. Deb does but Sonny wants to nail her--I guess no buses were handy at the moment --and get info on the murder and the all-important finders fee from Jim. Johnny and Luis however still want their dope and follow Sonny. Of course Sonny wouldn't want Jim to know he was involved with setting up a buy for the "Latin gentlemens". He wasn't involved in a set-up, he just "over-booked" so to speak.

I have to agree with you. I've always wondered why Sonny didn't find a way to go back later and get Jim. This would have kept Jim and/or the others from doubting him. I don't really buy his story about having to hide in the dumpster for six hours.

[greenbeing]

Yeah, I thought six hours was pushing it a little, too.

What an intriguing statement! The one about "we've been through this before." It really does make you wonder what happened last time.

And I've been thinking, too. So the original plan was for Karen, Marty, and Tom to all be with them. So Sonny could have been helping set the Latin gentlemans up for a bigger finder's fee--except, no, that doesn't work either, (sorry, now I'm thinking too much) because they were supposed to meet at the diner. And unless Sonny called them from the car to let them know about a change of venu, then they would have had to be following Sonny or Debbie...

But, to be in Sonny's shoes, knowing that yes, Dunbar can't see, but... Either he really messed up on this one by underestimating Jim, or maybe he didn't know he was being followed. Maybe the Latin gentlemans had been following Bud and Sonny both, trying to find the dope?

Hmm, there are just too many variables that the writers didn't explore. I wish they would have gone more in-depth, as I really did like this episode. And who knows, maybe they did, but had to cut it down to 46 minutes for TV. I wish I knew what they knew.

--GB

[bump]

greenbeing said:

Hmm... They did know Sonny's name, though...

I've heard the expression "sonny boy" used even when the person had a different name, so that's how I thought they meant it. Since that's Sonny's name, Jim was wondering if they knew each other. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

[kenina]

rmiro13 said:

I've heard the expression "sonny boy" used even when the person had a different name, so that's how I thought they meant it. Since that's Sonny's name, Jim was wondering if they knew each other. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

Love you like a sister, Becks (as the expression goes), but it's just waaaaay too coincidental in my opinion that this Hispanic guy would choose the phrase "Sonny boy" for someone actually named Sonny! I wish they had, if not explained this, at least given some hint that the issue would be revisited -- or even just that Jim was still thinking about it when he pushed Sonny against the cabinet in the interview room. He implied that maybe Sonny was doing a double-cross, but it would've been soooo easy to just ask why the hell Johnny called him by name. One of those loose ends we'll never be able to tie up. *sigh*

[greenbeing]

I agree, Kenina, that it would have been too coincidental. The writers would have had to play around with it if it was meant as coincidental.

--GB

[greenbeing]

Gaaaa! So last night I decided, while painting my library (I'm going to be painting that room until the day I die...) that I would listen to the audio that ya'll talked about in the chat room a couple weeks ago. Doggone being one of my uberly-fav episodes, I listened to that one (it's tied with the Pilot as fav). And, egad! I thought there was a deleted scene in there! Be still my heart, I'm thinking I'm going to swoon.

Then I realized, horror of horror, that during that episode, us midlanders had terrible weather with tornadoes swirling all around us, and they CUT OUT part of the show just to make sure we all lived. How dare they??? I'd always kinda wondered about this jump in plot... From the Jersey troops picking up Jim to suddenly they're interviewing Rory Glan--who the heck is he and where'd he come from???

So my question to all you darling people who love to analyze this show is--help! The scene where Jim is brought back in to the squad seems like it would be such a pivotal part of the show and of Jim's psyche, what he would be thinking of later, how everyone reacted, how he was reacting. Would anyone be so kind as to please describe Jim's countenance when he's brought back, describe the looks the others in the squad are giving him, maybe analyze this scene to death for me? It just seems so important! I can't believe I missed it! Aaaack! Sigh.

Tornadoes rank right up there with Trump, the NBA playoffs, and ABC. Darn them all.

But I'm truly very glad to have at least heard the audio and know that I did miss something. It's like reading your favorite book for the hundreth time and finding two of the pages were stuck together.

--GB

[mlm828]

greenbeing said:

Gaaaa! So last night I decided, while painting my library (I'm going to be painting that room until the day I die...) that I would listen to the audio that ya'll talked about in the chat room a couple weeks ago. Doggone being one of my uberly-fav episodes, I listened to that one (it's tied with the Pilot as fav). And, egad! I thought there was a deleted scene in there! Be still my heart, I'm thinking I'm going to swoon.

Then I realized, horror of horror, that during that episode, us midlanders had terrible weather with tornadoes swirling all around us, and they CUT OUT part of the show just to make sure we all lived. How dare they??? I'd always kinda wondered about this jump in plot... From the Jersey troops picking up Jim to suddenly they're interviewing Rory Glan--who the heck is he and where'd he come from???

So my question to all you darling people who love to analyze this show is--help! The scene where Jim is brought back in to the squad seems like it would be such a pivotal part of the show and of Jim's psyche, what he would be thinking of later, how everyone reacted, how he was reacting. Would anyone be so kind as to please describe Jim's countenance when he's brought back, describe the looks the others in the squad are giving him, maybe analyze this scene to death for me? It just seems so important! I can't believe I missed it! Aaaack! Sigh.

Tornadoes rank right up there with Trump, the NBA playoffs, and ABC. Darn them all.

But I'm truly very glad to have at least heard the audio and know that I did miss something. It's like reading your favorite book for the hundreth time and finding two of the pages were stuck together.

--GB

Oh, no! How awful to have missed a scene.

There is a summary of this part in my recap, but it may not have as much detail as you'd like. Here are a few screencaps to help fill in the blanks.

Here's Karen talking to Jim, looking concerned:



And here are all of them:







I looked for one of Marty asking, "You're sure you're okay?" but didn't find one.

Earlier in this thread, bjobsessed posted a series of screencaps of Jim at the water cooler. It's post #14.

Hope this helps!

[Duchess of Lashes]

greenbeing said:

Then I realized, horror of horror, that during that episode, us midlanders had terrible weather with tornadoes swirling all around us, and they CUT OUT part of the show just to make sure we all lived. How dare they??? I'd always kinda wondered about this jump in plot... From the Jersey troops picking up Jim to suddenly they're interviewing Rory Glan--who the heck is he and where'd he come from???

So my question to all you darling people who love to analyze this show is--help! The scene where Jim is brought back in to the squad seems like it would be such a pivotal part of the show and of Jim's psyche, what he would be thinking of later, how everyone reacted, how he was reacting. Would anyone be so kind as to please describe Jim's countenance when he's brought back, describe the looks the others in the squad are giving him, maybe analyze this scene to death for me? It just seems so important! I can't believe I missed it! Aaaack! Sigh.

Tornadoes rank right up there with Trump, the NBA playoffs, and ABC. Darn them all.

But I'm truly very glad to have at least heard the audio and know that I did miss something. It's like reading your favorite book for the hundreth time and finding two of the pages were stuck together.

--GB

MLM is quick and I see that she has already provided the photos and analysis , but this is a link that will allow you see the missing portion, if you'd like (it's only temporary) :

s53.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3GZ55ACVKUKK831Z2GF2CWG6PX

Those scenes are so vital to the understanding of what it was like for Jim, et.al., on his arrival back at the Precinct.

LongLashes