Church and Religion news

[inuvik]

I like to keep threads pretty generic, so we don't have so many, so this thread title is in this vein.

Here's a story I just read about the American Episcopal Church. First female primate in the whole Anglican communion!

www.episcopalchurch.org/3577_76174_ENG_HTM.htm

[awlrite4now]

Methinks you mean "prelate" rather than primate.

[bjobsessed]

awlrite4now said:

Methinks you mean "prelate" rather than primate.

I never noticed that the first time! I'm spitting chips all over the place! ;D ;D

[mlm828]

I hope to see the day when the selection of a woman for such a position (whatever it's called) isn't considered newsworthy!

[shmeep]

awlrite4now said:

Methinks you mean "prelate" rather than primate.

I didn't know what it was called, but I did think it was odd that the title of such a position would be primate. That's a very entertaining error, Inuvik!

But back to the news itself, I read about it yesterday in the Washington Post and thought it was pretty cool. I agree with mlm that it would be even cooler had such a thing not been newsworthy at all, but we're not quite there yet.

WARNING! RELIGIOUS RANT AHEAD!

(I didn't know this issue would trigger a rant, but it did so I want to preface by saying that I know such issues can be touchy for some people and that it not my intent to offend anyone here. I was raised in a non-denominational Fundamentalist Evangelical type church so this is just something that has always struck a nerve. I'm not anti-church or anti-God or anti-Christian, but I do have some opinions...)

At the church where I was raised, women couldn't even be pastors and they were told (in a very condescending way) that their role was even MORE important because they were teaching and molding the children. They were allowed to speak to the congregation as long as they didn't have any notes up there (I don't know if that was a rule, but they never did so I assumed it would have made them look too smart or their talk look too prepared) and as long as they never called their message a "sermon," but rather a "testimony." Oh, and they usually ended up singing a song or two while they were up there.

Here is the verse most often used to back up that position:

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 1 Timothy 2:11-12

Sounds harsh, but it did fit in with the cultural norms of the day. Women were uneducated second-class citizens and were not permitted to speak anywhere, but Paul makes it clear that HE does not permit a woman to teach and does not claim it is decreed by God.

But if the church where I was raised is so literal, why would a woman even be permitted to give her testimony? Isn't that just as bad? And why do they overlook the two verses before the passage they use to forbid a woman from preaching? Here's a little more of that passage:

I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.

A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 1 Timothy 2:9-12

The church where I grew up (and where my parents still attend) clearly does not prevent a woman from attending church with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes--obvious cultural no-no's of the time when this passage was written--but that part is considered cultural while the very next part is considered to be something to be taken literally no matter when it happens or what the social norms are of that time. I love the wisdom of the Bible, but the people who profess to be following it need to be more consistent in which parts they perceive to be literal and which are just stating a moral lesson. To me, this passage in 1 Timothy seems to be about having appropriate behavior in church in order to show respect for where you are. It does not seem to be about whether or not women should be allowed to preach--or braid their hair.

This whole issue frustrates me!

I'm glad the Anglicans are so progressive.

[housemouse]

To add a bit to your rant, I'll share a recent experience.

A couple of weeks ago my six year-old told me that men are in charge and women have to do what men tell them to do. I was appalled and asked him where he got that idea. He told me a school friend of his told him. This friend's mom does indeed drive a minivan with a school of "Jesus fish" on the back. I had a very sad encounter with the boy a couple of days later. He had fallen and hurt himself, no one was coming to his aide and I comforted him and took him to the nurse's office. The boy was so sad I walked away with a profound sense of sadness about him. When I approached his teacher to say he would be a bit late because he was seeing the school nurse she gave me a bit of background on the little guy. Apparently the boy lives only with his mom because child welfare forced the dad out. Why was he kicked out of the house? Because he was beating the wife and both boys. The older brother was also beating this little fellow. There's a man who is in charge.

I was very impressed with the Episcopalian Church for moving religion another step forward. They are setting a positive example.

[doobrah]

inuvik said:

First female primate in the whole Anglican communion!

That really is big news if they elected an ape into the position! ;D

[maggiethecat]

doobrah said:

That really is big news if they elected an ape into the position!;D

No, no, no, apes only get elected to Congress.

[inuvik]

I know it seems like an error, but there are two different meanings and pronunciations for primate.

From Merriam Webster: (www.m-w.com)

Main Entry: pri·mate
Pronunciation: 'prI-"mAt or especially for 1 -m&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English primat, from Old French, from Medieval Latin primat-, primas archbishop, from Latin, leader, from primus
1 often capitalized : a bishop who has precedence in a province, group of provinces, or a nation
2 archaic : one first in authority or rank : LEADER
3 [New Latin Primates, from Latin, plural of primat-, primas] : any of an order (Primates) of mammals comprising humans, apes, monkeys, and related forms (as lemurs and tarsiers)
- pri·mate·ship /-"ship/ noun
- pri·ma·tial /prI-'mA-sh&l/ adjective



pri-MATE is the animal

PRI-mitt is the pronunciation for the head of the national church

It gave me a laugh too when I first heard the term

[doobrah]

Well, my bad.

[inuvik]

admin said:

--but that part is considered cultural while the very next part is considered to be something to be taken literally no matter when it happens or what the social norms are of that time. I love the wisdom of the Bible, but the people who profess to be following it need to be more consistent in which parts they perceive to be literal and which are just stating a moral lesson.

This is what frustrates me about all scripture quoting. It's easy to pick and choose what you want from the Bible. We don't stone women anymore, for example. People can seem to find references to back up whatever position they want. But, on the other hand, if we don't have the Bible what do we have? It's quite a conundrum.

admin said:

I'm glad the Anglicans are so progressive.

Me too! Although, many parts of the Anglican communion (esp the Global south) are not. In fact, not all areas of the communion ordain women priests yet, so there is a long way to go still.

Even in the States, a follow up story I read today said that within 24 hours, some diocescan bishops were asking for alternative episcopal oversight from the Archbishop of Canterbury. That means they do not recognize her authority and want another bishop to pastor them as their primate.

[awlrite4now]

inuvik said:

I know it seems like an error, but there are two different meanings and pronunciations for primate.

From Merriam Webster: (www.m-w.com)

Main Entry: pri·mate
Pronunciation: 'prI-"mAt or especially for 1 -m&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English primat, from Old French, from Medieval Latin primat-, primas archbishop, from Latin, leader, from primus
1 often capitalized : a bishop who has precedence in a province, group of provinces, or a nation
2 archaic : one first in authority or rank : LEADER
3 [New Latin Primates, from Latin, plural of primat-, primas] : any of an order (Primates) of mammals comprising humans, apes, monkeys, and related forms (as lemurs and tarsiers)
- pri·mate·ship /-"ship/ noun
- pri·ma·tial /prI-'mA-sh&l/ adjective



pri-MATE is the animal

PRI-mitt is the pronunciation for the head of the national church

It gave me a laugh too when I first heard the term

I'll be honest: I didn't look up PRI-mitt. Back when I was in good graces with the Episcopalians, they referred to the head dude as the prelate. Of course, things have changed a whole lot (thank goodness) in the thirty years I've not been in the good graces.

Mea culpa!