2008 Election Talk

[mlm828]

Even some conservatives are not happy with McCain. For example, Wick Allison, former publisher of the National Review, writes, "My party has slipped its moorings. It's time for a true pragmatist to lead the country." The complete article is here.

Then there's George Will, who compared McCain to the Queen of Hearts in Alice in Wonderland in this article today.

Interesting that the younger man is more prudent and thoughtful, and shows better judgment, than the geezer.

[mlm828]

To our members outside the U.S., here's your chance to "vote" in the U.S. Presidential election: If the World Could Vote.

If you're in the U.S., you can vote, too.

[inuvik]

Sept 24, 2008 17:30:28 GMT -5 mlm828 said:

To our members outside the U.S., here's your chance to "vote" in the U.S. Presidential election: If the World Could Vote.

If you're in the U.S., you can vote, too.

Cool! 157 countries have voted so far. In Canada, Obama is leading with 85 %.

Here in Canada, our campaign is pretty dull so far! I love elections and even I am bored!

[maggiethecat]

There is much to say about Friday night's debate -- could McBush have been one single iota more smarmy or condescending? -- but right now I have to say I'm feeling sad about the passing of Paul Newman. Why does this belong in a political thread? Because he was for decades an unrepentant liberal and the ultimate example of someone who put "his money where his mouth was."

What a legacy!!! Not only all those amazingly nuanced performances . . . but, last count, some $300 million from Newman's Own products, which funded not only the Hole in the Wall Gang camps for kids with cancer but any number of great and green causes. It all started as what he called "a lark," when he whipped up a batch of his homemade salad dressing for Christmas presents to the neighbors; they came back with the empties, like Oliver Twist asking, "Please sir, can I have some more?" And he ran with it. The next time you're in a grocery store, trying to choose between two bottles of salad dressing or two jars of spaghetti sauce, ask yourself this: Do I want to give my money to a faceless corporation or fund a worldwide assortment of terrific charities? Not much of a choice . . . and his products are natural and delicious and worth the money.

He will be missed -- as an artist, as a social activist, and as the ultimate example of "cool."

They just plain don't make 'em like that any more.

We here in Connecticut mourn his passing as a native son and one of our own -- a lovely, humble, intelligent and unassuming man who was an integral part of our community.

ON a personal note, I feel the sudden urgent need to go rent and re-savor "The Verdict."

[maggiethecat]

I know we're all busy and taken up with our own lives these days, but nothing to say about the debate?

[shmeep]

I just have a moment but...wow. It was striking.

This was the debate McCain was supposed to do well in. Foreign Policy. His supposed strong suit. Now, it can be argued that they both did well, but McCain needed to do much better than to tie this time and most people (well, most polls, at least) agree that Obama did better.

Substance aside, Obama just looked more at ease, more presidential, like a more decent human being (which I'm convinced he is). The format called for them to respond and then to interact with one another. Obama did this while McCain stubbornly refused to so much as look at Obama or call him by his name. He also seemed to be seething inside (especially when Obama called him out for apparently refusing to commit to meet with the prime minister of Spain). I was thoroughly entertained and am now feeling loads better, now that Caribou Barbie is imploding and Grampy McSame is seething and desperate.

See why Campaign 2008 is my favorite TV show?

[maggiethecat]

Heh.

Karma for making me laugh with the Caribou Barbie and Grandpa McSame nomenclature.

And let's here it for Tina Fay! Once again she nailed Sarah Palin to the wall on SNL, not viciously, but by wittily portraying her extreme weaknesses -- she really has Palin's delusional chirpiness down to a fine art. My favorite part was the bit about all those jobs at the UN going to foreigners . . .

[matilda]

I reckon noting the lifelong decency, and cool, of Paul Newman is highly relevant - it always seemed to me he really did lead a life of quiet actvism and I'm sad too. Not half as sad as my mother, bless her - for her generation, he was an icon and of course, loooovely to look at!

Geez I dunno .... it's all falling part and I have mixed interpretations as to how the bailout debacle is affecting polls/possible results.

Views Team BJ?

Cheers (well what the heck else can we say right now?)

Matilda

[mlm828]

Oct 1, 2008 8:00:33 GMT -5 matilda said:

Geez I dunno .... it's all falling part and I have mixed interpretations as to how the bailout debacle is affecting polls/possible results.

Views Team BJ?

Cheers (well what the heck else can we say right now?)

Matilda

I have been anxiously following the whole economic mess. I don't claim any expertise in economics, but it seems to me that the situation we're in is the direct, inevitable, and all-too-predictable result of the Republican economic dogma, going back to Ronald Reagan. Because of their efforts to undo FDR's New Deal, we now need a 21st century New Deal.

Like many if not most people, I hate the idea of bailing out the incompetent and greedy people who created the mess. But doing nothing is not an option. It's all too interconnected. Just this morning, the word out of Sacramento (state capital of California) is that the credit crunch is making it difficult for the state to get the short-term loans it needs to pay its bills. So if the state can't pay its bills, the businesses which provide goods and services to the state can't pay their bills or make payroll, and because of the credit crunch, they can't get loans to tide them over. Then their employees can't pay their bills. You get the idea. I have no idea if the plan as proposed will actually work, but I'm certain we can't do nothing.

A major reason the plan lacks support is that people simply don't believe things are bad enough to warrant such drastic action. Thanks to its lies about the Iraq War, the Bush Administration has zero credibility, and Congress also has very little credibility. So a lot of people simply aren't going to believe it when they say the sky is falling, even if the sky is in fact falling. And both the Administration and Congressional leaders have failed to persuade many people the plan isn't just another "corporate welfare" program to benefit the rich at the taxpayers' expense.

As for the politics of it all, my impression (which I think is shared by many people) is that McCain has been flailing around desperately and grandstanding, trying to get some traction on the issue, while Obama has seemed unflappable and more focused on actually solving the problem than McCain.

Changing the subject somewhat, I just read this very interesting article comparing Sarah Palin to a character from Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale, a truly terrifying book.

[mlm828]

Here is a link to what Obama said about the bailout in the Senate today.

[matilda]

wow - thanks for link mlm - what Obama said. Great speech.

Similarly fan of an international new New Deal dealing with the whole financial markets thing - very proud of Australian PM's performance at the UN last week, in context.

And these are the reasons I love gettin on this thread you fullas - thanks.

M

[inuvik]

So, tonight is the VP debate in America, and the leader's debate in English here in Canada (last night was the debate in French). Not sure who planned that!

Unfortunately, I think a lot of Canadians will be watching the American debate and not ours.

I am really looking forward to ours this year. For the first time, the Green party is allowed to participate! So there will be 5 leaders from 5 parties. Apparently she is quite feisty and a very good speaker, so should be very interesting.

[inuvik]

I don't know a lot either, but I'll comment anyway! I don't want to let ignorance stop me.

Oct 1, 2008 16:29:50 GMT -5 mlm828 said:

But doing nothing is not an option. It's all too interconnected.

Well, why not? My understanding is the country will go into a recession if nothing happens. That is certainly an option! Recessions can and do happen. It's not great, but it is an option.

A major reason the plan lacks support is that people simply don't believe things are bad enough to warrant such drastic action.

My major concern is simply over how it literally can happen. I haven't checked these figures myself, but I believe that the US national debt is already in the trillions of dollars and rising. Who would lend the US almost another trillion? I believe countries borrow from banks right? (I may be wrong). In this case, it's the banks that need bailing out. So where would they borrow this money from, and who would lend it? I don't think the US can afford any more debt.

Also, the cause is banks, society and individuals. Banks should not have been allowed to make high risk loans. I'm amazed no laws prevented it. Here the banks are much more conservative and recently, due to the US, the rules were tightened again. No more 40 year amortizations and no more 0 down mortgages.

Society needs to stop being one of rampant consumerism and entitlement.

And individuals should not have taken some of those mortgages either. Even if the bank would lend, people need to realize what they can afford and what they can't.

Maybe this belongs in rants eh!

Edited to add: Here's a national debt clock for the US. 10 trillion and rising! www.brillig.com/debt_clock/

Canada is "only" in the billions and falling.

[mlm828]

If the only people to suffer the consequences were those who made or took out those bad loans, or those who invested in securities backed by them, I'd say let them take their lumps. Unfortunately, however, the current crisis will affect everyone, sooner or later, and its effects are already spreading. A colleague on my legal list serve explained it better than I can, in response to a similar question:

"Okay, so the reason I, and other ordinary Americans should be concerned about not letting collapse those corporations that bought into CDOs because of their bad judgment is that ordinary investors have their life savings tied up in them?"

No, many of those corporations (Lehman, Bear Stearns) have collapsed, and their shareholders have already lost their entire investments in those entities. What Americans need to worry about is that other financial institutions, many less heavily leveraged, may also be hit because they cannot borrow as part of their normal operations because banks are now afraid to lend to other banks. Those borrowed funds are used in turn to fund businesses and state governments and to earn income for the banks. If more and more financial institutions fail, the genuine fear is that the system will completely freeze up, as it largely has for over a week. The result will be businesses that can't get needed funding for their operations, forcing lay offs and other cost cutting, leading to a general economic contraction.

Businesses and governments need short term funding to get through cash flow shortfalls. For example, in some months, state expenditures exceed tax receipts. California borrows short term to cover its expenses until those receipts come in. Similarly, businesses have periods where they need funding when cash flow temporarily falls short. Also, businesses borrow to purchase inventory, then pay it back when the inventory is sold. Businesses also borrow to expand and thus hire new people, etc.

There is nothing wrong with an economy where debt is necessary. Without it, we'd be like some Third World country, where borrowing is minimal and so is economic output. What is happening now is that poor lending decisions, mainly in the housing market, amplified by the bundling of that debt, have raised fears among lenders that even good credit risks may no longer be able to pay. When Lehman, Fannie, Freddie and AIG went under, banks not surprisingly became overly conservative. Just as too-loose credit is a problem, extremely tight credit poses its own negative consequences.

As for government borrowing, this is necessary too and good -- when it is used for investment purposes such as in building schools, roads and other public works that, as a practical matter, must be financed over time.

For an excellent analysis of how we got to this point and what may happen if our economic policies don't change, check out this article on why this is the most important election since 1932.

The leaders of Canada's government may be (and probably are) smarter than Bush and his gang, but in a global economy, national borders don't insulate anyone from the effects of the economic problems in the U.S.

[maggiethecat]

I assume we all watched the VP debate last night . . . well, all I can say re Sarah Palin is blecch.

Prepare for a rant.

Yeah, everyone's giving her all sorts of credit this morning because she wasn't the train wreck everyone was anticipating, but that may just be the ultimate example of damning with faint praise. At one point she refused to answer one of the questions -- which she clearly couldn't answer -- and just went back to talking to what she wanted to talk about. Hunh?

And her folksiness was at a nuclear -- or, as Sarah Palin would say, nu-cu-lar -- level. Droppin' the g in every word endin' in a g. Saying 'em for them, and adding "there" every chance she she got: over in Iran there, etc.

Nothing of substance, just same memorized parroted phrases from her stump speech over and over again, and her posture on environmental issues is truly frightening. My FAVORITE moment, however, was when, talking about the respective candidates military leadership capabilities, she crowed: "If there's anyone who knows how to win a war, it's John McCain!" Well, there's only one possible explanation for that statement -- McCain told her we won in Vietnam and she, being ill-read and proud of it, believed him.

Biden, on the other hand, was just fine, a seasoned pro on expected, and shone in the foreign policy questions.

Bill Maher referred to her as a "Category 5 moron." Funny, but the real morons, I'm afraid, are those who think she's worthy of the office . . . which she still does not have a clear picture about the duties of, and so it was lovely to hear Biden point out those little points of The Constitution, which she apparently has never read.

Basically, that woman scares the ^&%&%$ out of me.