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Post by Chris on Feb 18, 2007 5:30:24 GMT -5
I came across this today and found it really interesting. I know most of you don't sign, but if you want a good look at some ASL (Chris, I'm particularly talking to you!), here's your chance. Very interesting, Shmeep, I have some karma coming your way  Anyway, take a look if you're curious. You won't understand the first one, but there are a lot of scenes of Gallaudet University in it so that's pretty cool. You're right, I didn't understand anything in the first one, except when he spelled VLOG and the sign for Gallaudet. The second one I kind of thought I understood but that was because I read the subtitles and then saw the signs. So I really didn't get it but when you have the subtitles it makes it a lot easier. Does Deaf Americans come with subtitles??  Chris, I'd love to know what you think. Also...do Deaf people in your country make VLOGS like these? If so, I'd love it if you posted a link so I could take a look. I'm fascinated by how different Sign Language is in other countries. I don't think Deaf people in Denmark makes VLOGS but I probably wouldn't know anyway, at least I've never heard of VLOGS until today. I have two links where you can see some Danish Sign Language. The first one is the place where I work, the page has a short signed introduction. The site has recently been re-designed and I believe that eventually the whole site will be available in Sign Language. www.cfd.dkAnd you can read about us in English here www.cfd.dk/cfd.aspx?id=76The other link is to The Danish Association for the Deaf. www.deaf.dkThey sign everything there, unfortunately they doesn't have an English version so that probably makes it hard to figure out what they are talking about... Go have fun - maybe you understand us better than I understand ASL ;D Take care and keep smiling - Chris  |
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Post by shmeep on Feb 18, 2007 11:02:18 GMT -5
Thank you, Chris! Very cool. I just watch the first one so far. I didn't understand much. Is she an interpreter? She looks like one to me. Is your sign for SEE the same as ours? Like a "V" hand shape facing in and coming from the eyes? I thought I saw that. Also, she seems to be indexing the same way we do. Counting off on her fingers for something like "First we do ___ and then we do ___ and then..." pointing at a different finger for each thing listed. Is that what she was doing? If so, then that's so cool that it's done that way in both sign languages! Also, I recognized the sign for INTERPRETER because you said it's the same as our old-fashioned sign for BIRTHDAY. And did I see the sign for HOPE in there? I saw a double finger-crossed sign that looked like a variation of our sign for HOPE.
I'll look at the other links later when I have time. Thank you so much for sharing that. Very cool! And I'm sure the Deaf in your country have VLOGS too. I can't imagine them not. They probably just call them something else. They're still pretty new but I only know about them because my husband was watching a lot of them during the Gallaudet protests a few months ago. Speaking of that, that first Deaf guy I showed you, Jason, got arrested during the protests.
I think it's interesting that you recognized the sign for Gallaudet. I had no idea that other countries used our same sign for that.
Modified to add:
I just watched the second one and I recognized the sign for Denmark, which is the same as our sign for it. I thought I saw her saying that something was happening all over Denmark. And she was doing our sign for CONNECT a lot. And I saw our TOGETHER sign, but it might mean something else here. Very interesting. Now...hearing or Deaf? I thought they both signed like interpreters because of the way they were standing and signing so clearly, but maybe your Deaf people sign like that. Deaf here might sign formally like that during a presentation, but what I was showing you was more normal Deaf ASL--particularly Jason. I wanted you to see him because it's really cool to be able to watch the ASL of someone who is 3rd generation Deaf.
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Post by Chris on Feb 19, 2007 17:28:36 GMT -5
I watched your VLOGS again and I think I caught a little more of Jason's this time. Did he say that when he grew up, his parents went to Gallaudet?? It is cool though that even if you don't understand that much, you can tell that there is a difference between these two guys and their signing. It is quite easy to me, to see that Jason's signing is more "Deaf" than the other guy whos signing seem more "English" to me - which is why I got more of it right away, I think - that and the subtitles!! Thank you, Chris! Very cool. I just watch the first one so far. I didn't understand much. Is she an interpreter? She looks like one to me. Is your sign for SEE the same as ours? Like a "V" hand shape facing in and coming from the eyes? I thought I saw that. Also, she seems to be indexing the same way we do. Counting off on her fingers for something like "First we do ___ and then we do ___ and then..." pointing at a different finger for each thing listed. Is that what she was doing? If so, then that's so cool that it's done that way in both sign languages! Also, I recognized the sign for INTERPRETER because you said it's the same as our old-fashioned sign for BIRTHDAY. And did I see the sign for HOPE in there? I saw a double finger-crossed sign that looked like a variation of our sign for HOPE. Yes, she is an interpreter. And you're also right about the signs you have recognized, SEE, HOPE, INTERPRETER and about indexing, it is cool that we do it the same way I just watched the second one and I recognized the sign for Denmark, which is the same as our sign for it. I thought I saw her saying that something was happening all over Denmark. And she was doing our sign for CONNECT a lot. And I saw our TOGETHER sign, but it might mean something else here. Very interesting. Again, you're right, she was talking about the Association for the Deaf having branches all over the country. I think the sign for TOGETHER means something different here, but CONNECT was right. Now...hearing or Deaf? I thought they both signed like interpreters because of the way they were standing and signing so clearly, but maybe your Deaf people sign like that. Deaf here might sign formally like that during a presentation, but what I was showing you was more normal Deaf ASL--particularly Jason. I wanted you to see him because it's really cool to be able to watch the ASL of someone who is 3rd generation Deaf. She is Deaf and comes from a Deaf family. Her signing is not like that usually but I think it is because it is a formal presentation. She has done a lot of videos used in interpreters training and in Sign Language classes in general so she is used to being in front of a camera being signing very clearly. I had her for a few classes during interpreters training. There are different people signing on this site all deaf: www.deaf.dk/Landsforbundet/Nyheder/2007/20070209a%20klage%20fra%20ddl.aspxThis guy comes from a hearing family but his signing is more like normal Deaf signing. He is talking about a day-care facility for deaf children that is going to close. Here is another one also from a Deaf family: www.deaf.dk/Landsforbundet/Markesager.aspxAnd then there is: www.deaf.dk/Landsforbundet/Projekter/Det%20sociale%20tolkeprojekt.aspxHis signing is kind of slow here, but he is "feared" by all interpreters because he is hard to voice. He is quite easy to understand but to voice him is really hard because his signing is difficult to translate into Danish. He teaches Interpreters classes too and is a really nice guy. Here he is talking about interpreting being awailable in almost any situation now. Before you had to pay for an interpreter yourself in more "social" settings but it is now payed for through social services. - Chris |
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Post by shmeep on Feb 20, 2007 8:48:39 GMT -5
I watched your VLOGS again and I think I caught a little more of Jason's this time. Did he say that when he grew up, his parents went to Gallaudet?? Yes. He said that his father went to Gallaudet and was on the old hockey team and that he had grown up hearing stories about it. Good catch! It is cool though that even if you don't understand that much, you can tell that there is a difference between these two guys and their signing. It is quite easy to me, to see that Jason's signing is more "Deaf" than the other guy whos signing seem more "English" to me - which is why I got more of it right away, I think - that and the subtitles!! Very true, although Jared isn't exactly what I would call "English." His signs don't match up to the subtitles word for word, but his signing is much slower and a bit more convoluted than that of a more natural ASL signer--although maybe he was just trying to be very clear for the camera and is usually much more natural. I have no idea. She is Deaf and comes from a Deaf family. Her signing is not like that usually but I think it is because it is a formal presentation. She has done a lot of videos used in interpreters training and in Sign Language classes in general so she is used to being in front of a camera being signing very clearly. I had her for a few classes during interpreters training. She must have been a great teacher. Her signing is quite beautiful. I love this guy's style. Very clear and smooth. Was he saying there were 35 children entered into the program and that it was getting split up? That's what it looked like, but I'm sure that isn't right. I thought I saw him sign JAPAN a few times too but I'm sure that's not what he was saying. I thought I saw the sign for ENTER a couple of times. How do you sign DEAF? She looked very Deaf to me. Interesting. I noticed a combination of some facial grammar and a lot of mouthing. Do the Deaf people there mouth that much as a rule? Here, that's a sign of being a more English signer while the big "D" Deaf only use the mouth to show grammar. I tend to mouth a lot because most of the Deaf people I work with do and they want to know very specific things that are being said so now it's a bad habit and my husband is always teasing me about it because he wishes I would sign more like a Deaf person. But then he sometimes mouths a lot right back and says it's my fault. And then there is: www.deaf.dk/Landsforbundet/Projekter/Det%20sociale%20tolkeprojekt.aspxHis signing is kind of slow here, but he is "feared" by all interpreters because he is hard to voice. He is quite easy to understand but to voice him is really hard because his signing is difficult to translate into Danish. He teaches Interpreters classes too and is a really nice guy. Here he is talking about interpreting being available in almost any situation now. Before you had to pay for an interpreter yourself in more "social" settings but it is now payed for through social services. Heh. I can see how he might be difficult. Easy to understand but difficult to voice is tough. Sometimes you practically have to be a mind reader to figure out exactly what a Deaf person is trying to convey. One guy I work with is nearly impossible to understand, but it's because his signing is very sloppy and he has no facial expression whatsoever. As long as he sticks with things relating to his job, I do okay because I've been here nearly three years and I can predict what he may be about to talk about and that makes it easier. The problem is that now he has these one-on-one meetings with his boss and lately he's been talking about sports and I know nothing about it and I can't understand what he's saying and I think he and his boss just prolong these talks to torture me. Every time one of those horrible sessions is over, his boss tells me I need to read the sports page to get it right (he's teasing, but he has a point) but it wouldn't matter because I never know what sport is going to be discussed in advance, nor do I know the players names, nor the proper way to describe the plays I'm seeing in English--if I understand the plays in the first place. Aside from all that, I'm quite certain this guy has his own made-up set of signs for sports terms because they aren't the same ones my husband uses. That's a nightmare! Thankfully, football season is over so they won't be going on and on about that for a while. Hopefully he'll go back to talking about skiing. I can handle that. I don't know if I showed you this yet, but here's an online ASL Dictionary. I don't agree with all of the signs, but it's pretty cool. You can look up any word on the list and see how it's signed in ASL. The section with conversational phrases is particularly good. |
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Post by Chris on Feb 20, 2007 17:38:54 GMT -5
Yes. He said that his father went to Gallaudet and was on the old hockey team and that he had grown up hearing stories about it. Good catch! Yay!! Very true, although Jared isn't exactly what I would call "English." His signs don't match up to the subtitles word for word, but his signing is much slower and a bit more convoluted than that of a more natural ASL signer--although maybe he was just trying to be very clear for the camera and is usually much more natural. I have no idea. That's probably it, I didn't see him as very "English" either but that was the best way I could describe it. She must have been a great teacher. Her signing is quite beautiful. She was I love this guy's style. Very clear and smooth. Was he saying there were 35 children entered into the program and that it was getting split up? That's what it looked like, but I'm sure that isn't right. I thought I saw him sign JAPAN a few times too but I'm sure that's not what he was saying. I thought I saw the sign for ENTER a couple of times. How do you sign DEAF? Well, he said 37 children but other that that, you are right The sign you thought was JAPAN is the sign for LETTER. He says that they sent a letter to the city, trying to convince them NOT to the close the place down. The sign is basically the sign for RECTANGLE. Our sign for JAPAN is like JAPAN 1 in the ASL Dictionary but more vertically, kind of like the shape of Japan itself. I think your sign for ENTER is our sign for HOME. The place he is talking about is a place where kids are after school and it is called something like " A Spare Time Home" The sign for DEAF.... How do I describe that??? I know... Like this but done once by the ear.  You might be able to recognize it in the videos (I hope :  There is also an old sign for DEAF like yours only opposite. By that I mean that you move your Index Finger from your ear and to your mouth. Some older people use this sign for DEAF as do people using it as an political statement, saying "I am Deaf and doesn't speak (by choice?) and I am proud of it" BTW this is how our sign for SIGN LANGUAGE is done: Left B-hand with fingers spread, right B-hand with fingers spread turning in an arc forward. Does this make ANY sense?? She looked very Deaf to me. Interesting. I noticed a combination of some facial grammar and a lot of mouthing. Do the Deaf people there mouth that much as a rule? Here, that's a sign of being a more English signer while the big "D" Deaf only use the mouth to show grammar. They do, some more than others but they do. I heard once that since for instance in the US Oral schools and school that teach in Sign Language are kept separate, signing Deaf people tend to mouth very little to show that they are big "D" Deaf and not orally trained. In Denmark we don't have that distinction since there are not that many Deaf people, (about 4,000 to 5,000) they all go to the same schools. They all get speech-training but are also signing so somehow that have caused them to accept a greater influence of Danish into the Sign Language. I tend to mouth a lot because most of the Deaf people I work with do and they want to know very specific things that are being said so now it's a bad habit and my husband is always teasing me about it because he wishes I would sign more like a Deaf person. But then he sometimes mouths a lot right back and says it's my fault. Funny!! I believe that mouthing is an interpreter-thing, like you say, Deaf people often want to know specific things that are being said. I interpret a lot in educational settings and when there is a technical term you have to use that so they get to know the correct terms. That might mess up you signing but you have to do so anyway. I also believe that since you have to focus on listening and understanding what's being said and then translate it, you signing sometimes suffer as a result, you can only do so much at a time. At least my signing is more "Deaf" when I'm making conversation than it is while I'm interpreting. One guy I work with is nearly impossible to understand, but it's because his signing is very sloppy and he has no facial expression whatsoever. As long as he sticks with things relating to his job, I do okay because I've been here nearly three years and I can predict what he may be about to talk about and that makes it easier. The problem is that now he has these one-on-one meetings with his boss and lately he's been talking about sports and I know nothing about it and I can't understand what he's saying and I think he and his boss just prolong these talks to torture me. Every time one of those horrible sessions is over, his boss tells me I need to read the sports page to get it right (he's teasing, but he has a point) but it wouldn't matter because I never know what sport is going to be discussed in advance, nor do I know the players names, nor the proper way to describe the plays I'm seeing in English--if I understand the plays in the first place. Aside from all that, I'm quite certain this guy has his own made-up set of signs for sports terms because they aren't the same ones my husband uses. That's a nightmare! Thankfully, football season is over so they won't be going on and on about that for a while. Hopefully he'll go back to talking about skiing. I can handle that. Hey, I know that guy I used to interpret for a young kid that had no facial expressions at all, didn't mouth anything and barely made any signs...  When he and his teacher was talking about the reasons why he didn't show up at class or didn't make his homework, I was quite comfortable, but he and the teacher rooted for two different British soccer teams. They would tease each other when their teams were playing, and I, who don't know anything about soccer, and certainly not British soccer teams, was completely lost. Fortunately, the teacher knew what the kid was talking about so my bad voicing wasn't that big a problem. He probably just thought, Oh, well, women knows nothing about the important things in life like soccer, gotta give her a break...  I don't know if I showed you this yet, but here's an online ASL Dictionary. I don't agree with all of the signs, but it's pretty cool. You can look up any word on the list and see how it's signed in ASL. The section with conversational phrases is particularly good. Thanks I have been looking for an on-line Danish Sign Language Dictionary but haven't found one yet. I do believe that there was a guy who made one about five years ago but I haven't come across it yet, maybe it doesn't exist anymore  - Chris |
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Post by shmeep on Feb 21, 2007 15:16:29 GMT -5
Ha! Karma for this! The sign for DEAF.... How do I describe that??? I know... Like this but done once by the ear. You might be able to recognize it in the videos (I hope : That's hilarious and yet...I can visualize it. Great use of a Jimmy pic to show a sign! Now take that same hand shape, hold it up to the ear and do a slight rotating movement and you have our sign for RADIO. What is your sign for HEARING? You can easily look up ours now. I think ours is kind of funny because it brings to mind people who are endlessly talking. I guess Deaf people would see hearing people as people whose mouths are always moving. There is also an old sign for DEAF like yours only opposite. By that I mean that you move your Index Finger from your ear and to your mouth. Actually, my sign for DEAF is like your old sign for DEAF. I do the index finger to the ear and then the mouth, but it's fine going the opposite way too. If you look at the ASL dictionary, the second sign for DEAF is the old fashioned one. It's literally EAR+CLOSED. I only see very old people signing that anymore. Interesting that our very basic DEAF sign is a political statement in your country. I guess the more oral deaf here wouldn't even call themselves deaf. If they can speak at all, they tend to label themselves either hard of hearing (signed H+H) or hearing impaired. BTW this is how our sign for SIGN LANGUAGE is done:Left B-hand with fingers spread, right B-hand with fingers spread turning in an arc forward. Does this make ANY sense?? It makes perfect sense. Like many well-trained interpreters, you know how to describe signs very well. Your sign for SIGN LANGUAGE sounds like our sign for GESTURE, only not the sign shown for that on the ASL Dictionary. My sign for gesture does not start with closed fists as the one there does. Our sign for SIGN has index fingers pointed toward each other and cycling--either forward or backward, doesn't matter--and then the LANGUAGE part is two L hand shapes starting together and then moving apart in a toggling motion. That sounds completely insane! That's a hard sign to describe for some reason but...you can look it up in the dictionary but it's not under Sign Language. You would have to go to the conversational phrases part, click on deafness, and then find a sentence that uses "Sign Language" in it. What a pain. The one I saw was the phrase "I am learning sign language." It's signed LEARN SIGN LANGUAGE (nod). Whatever. It's annoying. They do, some more than others but they do. I heard once that since for instance in the US Oral schools and school that teach in Sign Language are kept separate, signing Deaf people tend to mouth very little to show that they are big "D" Deaf and not orally trained. Yes, they are usually separate. Oral schools are for people who think Signing should only be a last resort and that it impedes linguistic development (which is the opposite of true, but hearing parents get scared...) so kids there aren't even allowed to sign to one another and sometimes their hands are even tied down so they will be forced to only lipread and speak. Many deaf who sign have also had speech training--sometimes successfully, sometimes not. My husband fits into that category. His speech is quite good, but he forbids me to tell other Deaf people he can even talk because there is a certain stigma there. But there's also a stigma among hearing people if he can't talk so...I guess he fits in everywhere and nowhere. I'm personally glad he can talk because it saves me a ton of voice interpreting, but it makes him mad because it meant his parents never had to struggle to learn to sign because his ability to speak made things easier for them. He wishes he had been deaf enough to have forced them into signing instead of feeling that things were good enough as is. In Denmark we don't have that distinction since there are not that many Deaf people, (about 4,000 to 5,000) they all go to the same schools. They all get speech-training but are also signing so somehow that have caused them to accept a greater influence of Danish into the Sign Language. Wow. So much food for thought. I did think it looked as though there was a lot of Danish in your Sign Language, but I wasn't sure. There's a lot of English in ours, too. When it happens naturally and the concepts stay the same, it's fine. It's when people try to feed kids that "Signing Exact English" garbage that things get weird. There's a sign for POPCORN and BUTTERFLY, but according to the SEE signers, it's okay to sign SODAPOP+CORN and BUTTER+FLY because it matches up in English even though it doesn't come close to matching up conceptually in ASL. And we wonder why the poor kids who are taught such things end up feeling confused! Funny!! I believe that mouthing is an interpreter-thing, like you say, Deaf people often want to know specific things that are being said. I interpret a lot in educational settings and when there is a technical term you have to use that so they get to know the correct terms. That might mess up you signing but you have to do so anyway. I also believe that since you have to focus on listening and understanding what's being said and then translate it, you signing sometimes suffer as a result, you can only do so much at a time. At least my signing is more "Deaf" when I'm making conversation than it is while I'm interpreting. I'm the opposite. My conversational ASL isn't as good as I would like it to be. I understand everything just fine, but putting my English thoughts into ASL sometimes feels a little forced. When I'm interpreting, my brain goes to this other place and I find my signing greatly improved. It's clear and I'm using space better and I actually end up impressing myself once in a while. I feel like it's easier when I don't have to come up with the words AND translate at once as I do when I'm the one talking. We were recently playing laser tag with an entirely Deaf group of friends and it hit them at the last minute that they would need an interpreter to get the instructions so, being the only hearing person in the group, I was asked and ended up interpreting a twenty-minute spiel to about twenty Deaf people. It was really fun and my husband, who is slow to compliment my interpreting because he's weird that way, actually admitted that I was clear and easy to understand and a much better signer than I was during conversation (which is usually what he sees of my signing). I made him repeat the compliment a couple of times and it felt good. Thank you so much for playing with me here. I love all the comparisons. I find your take on all this fascinating, mostly because it's so similar to what I do despite being an entirely different language. It's amazing just how much is universal after all. |
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Post by Chris on Feb 22, 2007 8:30:56 GMT -5
This is very interesting The ASL Dictionary is very helpful. I looked up TOGETHER and that's our sign for ASSOCIATION. I also looked up your sign for Denmark and that made me giggle The sign is the same but the way it's done is very exaggerated and very clear. We do it more like you can see it in the clips, faster, shorter and with a very small wave. Ha! Karma for this! I forgot to say that you have to close your hand but there wasn't a screencap to show that, but I'm sure you got that.. Modified to add: I could insert a picture from the dictionary but I like Jimmy better ;D Now take that same hand shape, hold it up to the ear and do a slight rotating movement and you have our sign for RADIO. What is your sign for HEARING? You can easily look up ours now. I think ours is kind of funny because it brings to mind people who are endlessly talking. I guess Deaf people would see hearing people as people whose mouths are always moving. Well, their mouths are always moving, aren't they? Our sign for RADIO is the same as yours. HEARING; index finger pointing at the ear moving away from the ear. Modified to insert photo As far as I remember this is actually the guy from the clip almost twenty years ago... I guess the more oral deaf here wouldn't even call themselves deaf. If they can speak at all, they tend to label themselves either hard of hearing (signed H+H) or hearing impaired. If they sign most deaf people here label themselves deaf but some label themselves hearing impaired. That's mostly people who can speak and hear quite a lot. I think it mostly depends on their ability to hear more than their speaking. Again, we don't have the sharp distinction between those who were orally trained ad those who sign since we do kind of both. Your sign for SIGN LANGUAGE sounds like our sign for GESTURE, only not the sign shown for that on the ASL Dictionary. Love the ASL Dictionary!!! Our sign for SIGN LANGUAGE is more like your sign for SCHEDULE, left B-hand with fingers spread, holding still, and right B-hand, fingers spread, moving down, turning and then moving forward. Our sign for SIGN has index fingers pointed toward each other and cycling--either forward or backward, doesn't matter--and then the LANGUAGE part is two L hand shapes starting together and then moving apart in a toggling motion. That sounds completely insane! That's a hard sign to describe for some reason but...you can look it up in the dictionary but it's not under Sign Language. You would have to go to the conversational phrases part, click on deafness, and then find a sentence that uses "Sign Language" in it. What a pain. The one I saw was the phrase "I am learning sign language." It's signed LEARN SIGN LANGUAGE (nod). Whatever. It's annoying. Great description, you too, describes sign very well. I have picked up a few ASL signs here and there, and I used to watch "Reasonable Doubts" with Marlee Matlin over and over, has the whole series on VHS and picked up a few signs along the way, your sign for SIGN LANGUAGE being one of them. Yes, they are usually separate. Oral schools are for people who think Signing should only be a last resort and that it impedes linguistic development (which is the opposite of true, but hearing parents get scared...) so kids there aren't even allowed to sign to one another and sometimes their hands are even tied down so they will be forced to only lipread and speak. They did that here, too, many years ago, but the kids would sign anyway as soon as they got their chance. I don't know if they actually tied their hands down (who am I kidding, of course they did  ) but I know they had to sit on their hands, but as soon as the teacher turned his back to the kids they would begin signing. They would also sign during breaks and outside school. And yes, hearing parents gets scared. Now, almost all Deaf kids get a Cochlear Implant, which is fine I guess, but the problem is, that we are now back to oral training. Apparently they tell the parents that signing will impede linguistic development like you said, and maybe they are right, who am I to say?? Many kids with CI are in mainstream schools and doesn't learn any Sign Language at all and they seem to do fine. But my fear is, that once these kids get older they will need an interpreter of some sort and they will have to re-define themselves in a way. They have grown up as (more or less) hearing and then they realize that they can't keep up in the hearing world. At the same time they don't have the Deaf identity like most Deaf people have now plus they can't sign, so they will have to build a new identity at the same time they are forced to learn a new language that they have been brought up believing, they don't need... I just hope I'm wrong, if I'm not... Poor kids Many deaf who sign have also had speech training--sometimes successfully, sometimes not. My husband fits into that category. His speech is quite good, but he forbids me to tell other Deaf people he can even talk because there is a certain stigma there. But there's also a stigma among hearing people if he can't talk so...I guess he fits in everywhere and nowhere. I'm personally glad he can talk because it saves me a ton of voice interpreting, but it makes him mad because it meant his parents never had to struggle to learn to sign because his ability to speak made things easier for them. He wishes he had been deaf enough to have forced them into signing instead of feeling that things were good enough as is. Very true. A lot of Deaf people are in the same situation here where their parents think, hey, he can speak, so we don't really need to learn to sign, we're doing fine. Yeah, right!! Being able to speak is not a stigma amongst Deaf people here - as far as I know - I think that some see it as an advantage, and others really don't care that much whether someone can speak or not... I think they are a bit more relaxed about the speaking issue here, I don't even think it is an issue. Wow. So much food for thought. I did think it looked as though there was a lot of Danish in your Sign Language, but I wasn't sure. There's a lot of English in ours, too. When it happens naturally and the concepts stay the same, it's fine. It's when people try to feed kids that "Signing Exact English" garbage that things get weird. There's a sign for POPCORN and BUTTERFLY, but according to the SEE signers, it's okay to sign SODAPOP+CORN and BUTTER+FLY because it matches up in English even though it doesn't come close to matching up conceptually in ASL. And we wonder why the poor kids who are taught such things end up feeling confused! The last guy you saw, the one a little older, he likes to make signs like that for fun The Danish form of SEE is called TSK and it uses the right signs but the grammar is Danish, mostly, but still uses a few elements from Sign Language as space and indexing for instance. During Interpreters Training we are taught to interpret using TSK which is mostly used by people having lost their hearing as adults. I like to interpret into TSK because you get to sign all the Danish Idioms you usually will have to translate into their meaning, and I think it's fun to do once in a while. It is also very hard on my hands and shoulders though because you have to make more signs than you do when interpreting into Deaf Sign Language. I'm the opposite. My conversational ASL isn't as good as I would like it to be. I understand everything just fine, but putting my English thoughts into ASL sometimes feels a little forced. When I'm interpreting, my brain goes to this other place and I find my signing greatly improved. It's clear and I'm using space better and I actually end up impressing myself once in a while. I feel like it's easier when I don't have to come up with the words AND translate at once as I do when I'm the one talking. Ohh, I ABSOLUTELY know what you mean!! And I also impresses myself sometimes, isn't it weird, after all these years of interpreting, you can still do something that impresses you, and while still interpreting, in a corner of your mind you think, Whau, did I do that?? We were recently playing laser tag with an entirely Deaf group of friends and it hit them at the last minute that they would need an interpreter to get the instructions so, being the only hearing person in the group, I was asked and ended up interpreting a twenty-minute spiel to about twenty Deaf people. It was really fun and my husband, who is slow to compliment my interpreting because he's weird that way, actually admitted that I was clear and easy to understand and a much better signer than I was during conversation (which is usually what he sees of my signing). I made him repeat the compliment a couple of times and it felt good. Well, he should!!! Thank you so much for playing with me here. I love all the comparisons. I find your take on all this fascinating, mostly because it's so similar to what I do despite being an entirely different language. It's amazing just how much is universal after all. Agreed Do you have Sign Language names?? We have Sign Language names for each person, usually something that significant for the person. We use a specific sign and then we mouth the name. I had a teacher who was called Sussi "BIG NOSE" and, yes, it was big Many people are called CANDY or CHOCOLATE and also SWEET or SMILE are very common. I have a co-worker her sign is LIGHTNING because her last name is like the Danish word for Lightning. My Sign Language name is a little hard to describe but it is the Danish sign for SINGING, but instead if using your Index Finger, it is made with I-Hands. I for Inge which is my first name. I managed to scan a picture which makes it a lot better to understand how it's done. It's from The Danish Sign Language Dictionary it's guite old and I seldom use it, but now I know why I kept it!!  I got that name because I uesd to sing in a choir. I don't sing anymore and I would probably prefer HORSE now, but I don't want to change it now, it's not that important to me. - Chris |
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Post by shmeep on Feb 22, 2007 9:19:37 GMT -5
I started to write a response to you and then accidentally posted it and then accidentally deleted it and I think I may have deleted something else in this thread along with it so...sorry if I screwed anything up! I'm really enjoying this conversation. I appreciate you taking such time to show me the way it is done in your country. And thank you Board for indulging a couple of interpreters. We have a lot to say that may not be thrilling to the rest of you, but I'm grateful to have a place to have this conversation. I also looked up your sign for Denmark and that made me giggle The sign is the same but the way it's done is very exaggerated and very clear. We do it more like you can see it in the clips, faster, shorter and with a very small wave. I noticed the difference but was still able to catch that sign in the clips. Yes, it's much cooler when signed by you. In ASL, we used our own signs for other countries for years but lately we've gradually been switching over to the national signs used by the countries themselves. Very interesting--and often confusing. I think we may have made this change because some of our signs were not very socially acceptable. All of our Asian country signs, for example, are initialized signs that indicate squinty eyes. HEARING; index finger pointing at the ear moving away from the ear. Modified to insert photoAs far as I remember this is actually the guy from the clip almost twenty years ago... Very cool! That's not really a sign here (although if you're going toward the ear instead of away from it, it means HEAR) but the funny thing is that it looks like the gesture Deaf people make to hearing people to let them know they can't hear. My husband does that when someone tries to talk to him and doesn't know he's Deaf. Hearing people seem to get it--most of the time. Love the ASL Dictionary!!! Our sign for SIGN LANGUAGE is more like your sign for SCHEDULE, left B-hand with fingers spread, holding still, and right B-hand, fingers spread, moving down, turning and then moving forward. Ah! I completely misunderstood the description. I did see the sign for SCHEDULE several times but to me they were just talking about...a schedule. Oops. I have picked up a few ASL signs here and there, and I used to watch "Reasonable Doubts" with Marlee Matlin over and over, has the whole series on VHS and picked up a few signs along the way, your sign for SIGN LANGUAGE being one of them. I didn't get into that show for some reason. I have no idea why not. I saw it a few times, though. It was on before I knew ASL so I can't say how accurate it was. Did you ever see Marlee Matlin on The West Wing? That was pretty good, although she seemed to pick up an awful lot while not watching her interpreter and the interpreter almost never stood in the right place for optimum visibility but...it was still very cool. Right now Marlee Matlin is sometimes on a very silly comedy called My Name is Earl. She plays the lawyer of a very uneducated character who constantly laughs at the way she speaks and refers to her as "My Deaf lawyer" all the time. It's very very wrong, but still funny. The part I don't like is that they have the lawyer's poor interpreter working for almost nothing and forced to be practically a slave--and he meets with clients without the lawyer there. So...I don't mind that they're mocking the Deaf (if Marlee Matlin doesn't mind, why should I?) but I really hate that they are giving such a perception of an interpreter. It's not supposed to be a realistic show, but since interpreters are almost never featured on TV, I'd like to see them at least pretend to research a little. And yes, hearing parents gets scared. Now, almost all Deaf kids get a Cochlear Implant, which is fine I guess, but the problem is, that we are now back to oral training. Apparently they tell the parents that signing will impede linguistic development like you said, and maybe they are right, who am I to say?? Many kids with CI are in mainstream schools and doesn't learn any Sign Language at all and they seem to do fine. But my fear is, that once these kids get older they will need an interpreter of some sort and they will have to re-define themselves in a way. They have grown up as (more or less) hearing and then they realize that they can't keep up in the hearing world. At the same time they don't have the Deaf identity like most Deaf people have now plus they can't sign, so they will have to build a new identity at the same time they are forced to learn a new language that they have been brought up believing, they don't need... I just hope I'm wrong, if I'm not... Poor kids I think you're right on about that. I've worked with several high school students with CI and they generally require some sort of help despite the technology. Two kids I worked with were still basically Deaf and needed interpreters--only one was in denial and thought he could hear because he had been told he could hear. One functioned well and could speak, but still needed an interpreter for classes, and one entered high school without any ASL and had a captionist in her classes transcribing everything that went on, but she started learning ASL and becoming friends with the other Deaf students and by the end of her freshman year, she was starting to talk about removing her implant so she could finally embrace her deafness. And she was a success story! These kids all still felt Deaf inside and longed to just be themselves so...if I have a Deaf kid, no Cochlear Implant for them! No way. It works okay for people who were born hearing, but let the deaf be Deaf! That's how I feel. I'm glad my husband wasn't a candidate for it when he was a kid or his parents probably would have done it. Do you have Sign Language names?? We do. There are rules about how one gets a Sign Language name, though. Hearing people can't give them to other people, or to themselves. It has to happen naturally. Deaf people just start referring to you in a certain way and that's how you get your name sign. Mine has changed. A Deaf friend gave me a sign with an E going down my hair because my hair was long and curly. Then I shaved my head because my friend had cancer and I caught another Deaf friend asking if anyone had seen me. He started to do the hair sign, but changed it to an E shaved head sign as he was speaking because he realized the old sign was no longer appropriate. I put a halt to that and just told people I didn't have a name sign for a while after that because I didn't like the new one (although people could have continued referring to me like that). My husband never gives out name signs so the one I have now came from his friend. He was asking my husband about me and I caught him signing my name with an E tapping his jaw. So I took it. That's it. That's what a Deaf guy calls me, so that's my name sign. It doesn't really mean anything. I think he just did it because my husband's name sign is a B tapping his temple and his friend probably thought my name "matched" my husband's. Fine with me. |
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Post by Chris on Feb 22, 2007 14:03:09 GMT -5
I started to write a response to you and then accidentally posted it and then accidentally deleted it and I think I may have deleted something else in this thread along with it so...sorry if I screwed anything up! I'm really enjoying this conversation. I appreciate you taking such time to show me the way it is done in your country. So THAT'S where your first post in this thread went I am enjoying this as much as you are It is great to learn more about the way things are done in different countries. I know some about the way things are done in Europe but learning more about the US is very interesting. And thank you Board for indulging a couple of interpreters. We have a lot to say that may not be thrilling to the rest of you, but I'm grateful to have a place to have this conversation. Me too I In ASL, we used our own signs for other countries for years but lately we've gradually been switching over to the national signs used by the countries themselves. Very interesting--and often confusing. I think we may have made this change because some of our signs were not very socially acceptable. All of our Asian country signs, for example, are initialized signs that indicate squinty eyes. We have our own signs for other countries, some of them are their national signs, some are our signs. I think there is a tendency to use a country's own sign if we don't have one of our own traditionally. This has happened a lot the recent years, like with the Balkan Countries and the Middle East. Ah! I completely misunderstood the description. I did see the sign for SCHEDULE several times but to me they were just talking about...a schedule. Oops. Well, I think my second description was a little more accurate Our sign for SCHEDULE is like a combo between yours and our sign for SIGN LANGUAGE. Again the left hand is held still with fingers spread, and the right hand, fingers spread, goes down and then forward in a more square movement than in the SIGN LANGUAGE sign, like the squares on squared paper. Or just our sign for SIGN LANGUAGE done more distinct if you understand what I mean. OMG all this describing of signs is really a challenge but quite fun too  Did you ever see Marlee Matlin on The West Wing? That was pretty good, although she seemed to pick up an awful lot while not watching her interpreter and the interpreter almost never stood in the right place for optimum visibility but...it was still very cool. I noticed that too, but like you said, still very cool.. Right now Marlee Matlin is sometimes on a very silly comedy called My Name is Earl. She plays the lawyer of a very uneducated character who constantly laughs at the way she speaks and refers to her as "My Deaf lawyer" all the time. It's very very wrong, but still funny. I think I saw one ep of that show but it's too silly for me so I haven't seen her in it. Did you see the episode of Spin City where they had an interpreter who couldn't sign?? He was so bad it was hilarious ;D They were trying so much to be PC that they failed miserably, too funny ;D I think you're right on about that. I've worked with several high school students with CI and they generally require some sort of help despite the technology. Two kids I worked with were still basically Deaf and needed interpreters--only one was in denial and thought he could hear because he had been told he could hear. One functioned well and could speak, but still needed an interpreter for classes, and one entered high school without any ASL and had a captionist in her classes transcribing everything that went on, but she started learning ASL and becoming friends with the other Deaf students and by the end of her freshman year, she was starting to talk about removing her implant so she could finally embrace her deafness. And she was a success story! These kids all still felt Deaf inside and longed to just be themselves so...if I have a Deaf kid, no Cochlear Implant for them! No way. It works okay for people who were born hearing, but let the deaf be Deaf! That's how I feel. I'm glad my husband wasn't a candidate for it when he was a kid or his parents probably would have done it. That's exactly what I am afraid of will happen here too... You are ahead of us since they didn't start implanting kids here until about 10 years ago. Well, some kids were implanted before that, but about ten years ago it became common to do so. So they are still in elementary school and they won't be needing interpreters for another five years at least. Now many Deaf adults get CI, I have interpreted for three or four at the hospital for their examinations before the surgery and heard about others who were going to have the it soon. I have also interpreted for a guy after the surgery the day they activated his CI that was somehow interesting. The adults who are getting the surgery used to benefit from their Hearing-Aids but now their hearing is deteriorating which is why they want a CI. Not because they believe it's going to make them hearing all of a sudden but more as an advanced Hearing-Aid. One of the guys I interpreted for has Usher and of course wanted to be able to hear as much as he could since his sight was basically disappearing. We do. There are rules about how one gets a Sign Language name, though. Hearing people can't give them to other people, or to themselves. It has to happen naturally. Deaf people just start referring to you in a certain way and that's how you get your name sign. I think the rules are about the same here, however at the Interpreters Training we all get Sign Language names, some of us got our name from a Deaf (or a hearing) teacher or we gave each other names and some of us decided for ourselves. I chose my own name since nobody really could come up with one better than the singing one so I simply decided that that would be it. - Chris |
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Post by shmeep on Feb 28, 2007 8:26:44 GMT -5
Chris, one of the Deaf people I interpret for sent me this link this morning and I thought of you (and anyone else who may be interested--but mostly Chris, I confess : : www.rosaleeshow.com/2006/08/18/my-deaf-lady/I'll summarize what's going on. It's a one-woman Sign Language parody of My Fair Lady, so knowing the story will help you get what's going on here. Eliza is signing in the very worst form of Signing Exact English and this is very ugly from the perspective of Henry Higgins, who puts her down and tells her that ASL is much better. Pickering chimes in and defends Eliza, saying it's not her fault and that she was raised that way so he and Higgins make a bet about whether or not Eliza can be signing ASL in six months. Higgins then goes on to show Eliza several signs that are distinctly ASL and that have no SEE sign equivalent and she does them very badly and this frustrates him, but then he gives her an ASL pep talk and she has a breakthrough and is able to sign ASL. Very silly, but cute. I like seeing her take on the different styles of sign. |
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Post by Chris on Feb 28, 2007 17:21:32 GMT -5
Eliza was really funny doing her SEE signing and poor Higgins with a headache, priceless!! In a weird way, I didn't understand what they were saying, but at the same time somehow did??? Hard to explain but I think I didn't catch their signs per se but got the idea anyway from body-language and the general impressions. Karma for the laughs. - Chris |
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) but I know they had to sit on their hands, but as soon as the teacher turned his back to the kids they would begin signing. They would also sign during breaks and outside school.