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Post by hoosier on Sept 14, 2005 17:51:41 GMT -5
We continue to see glimpses of the old Dunbar in other episodes--when he is first in the door into Cordell's apartment in Marlon's Brando, and later with Seoul Man when he beats himself up over the perp getting away which would Never have happened (no ifs ,ands or buts) with the old Jim.
He has had to learn to approach people on a different level. He apparently was good at it before, he seems to have an easy rapport , but now there can be no eye contact and he must rely on tone of voice, vibes etc. One on one with people is and has to be different and his blindness will be the first thing people will notice and react to,regardless of who they are.
Jim has had to sit back and examine himself--I am not talking a deep philosophical thing but who he is, what he wanted to do, and what he had to do to get back to what he did ,namely police work. He is more than capable if limited in what he can do. Unfortunately, his disability is what people see first and how many will judge him regardless of well he does his job. Its tough to overcome stereotypes and preconceptions. You can butt your head up against them all day long or do your job and let that speak for itself.
As to Christie, I think she could have been a tad more understanding. Of course, she didn't know what kind of a day he had had and he did said he had had a good day so that was all she had to go one. When she pushed for more information, he got mad and said he he didn't want to face at home what he had faced all day at work. She was getting mixed signals. But then she overeacted and threw it in his face that he kept closing her out. Okay-what would you do??? Back off?? Not apologize per say but back off. You can get your answers another day, hopefully. Let him blow off steam--it wasn't your fault, you were just the handy target. He couldn't let his temper flare at work so he did at home.
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Post by maggiethecat on Sept 14, 2005 18:34:57 GMT -5
He has had to learn to approach people on a different level. He apparently was good at it before, he seems to have an easy rapport , but now there can be no eye contact and he must rely on tone of voice, vibes etc. One on one with people is and has to be different and his blindness will be the first thing people will notice and react to,regardless of who they are. Exactly! (Or should I say absolutely?) Which is why I keep coming back to the fact that, no matter how much Jim is accepted as a valuable menber of the squad (which happens by the end of the series if not before), he will still have to face the public and those preconceived notions of "the blind guy." "Like, totally blind?" "Am I being punked?" No matter how much Karen and the others have come around to valuing his worth, Jim is going to keep coming across this sort of attitude every time he has to deal with the public, a suspect, a perp, etc. And it will continue to weigh on him, just as continuing to do his job -- The Job -- will always take more out of him than it once did. What he's lost, I think, in the hellish transition between the old sighted Dunbar and the new, is spontaneity. No more walking down the street with your hands in your pockets. The simple act of crossing a room has to be planned. No matter how many times you've counted your way across the squad room to Fisk's door, every time you do it some small part of your brain has to do that count. No matter how many times you've crossed your living room to get a beer from the fridge, some small part of your brain has to keep thinking, Watch out for the coffee table. Don't trip on the area rug. How many candles did Christie light tonight? Remember where they are. Those micro-bursts of energy add up over the course of a day. The effect is cumulative. And ennervating. And, that, really, is all I meant when I said that for Jim to keep on doing what he does is going to require stamina, concentration, and those famous balls of steel. The mental aspects of the job haven't changed. The physical aspects have. And, as good as he gets, it will never be easy. That's what I meant about how it costs him, what it takes out of him. I think for the past couple of days we have all, basically, been on the same page. It's really a question of wording, and "slant." And that's what keeps this discussion going and this board so lively. Said it before, but why not say it again? Viva Blind Justice! |
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Post by housemouse on Sept 15, 2005 9:11:05 GMT -5
He has had to learn to approach people on a different level. He apparently was good at it before, he seems to have an easy rapport , but now there can be no eye contact and he must rely on tone of voice, vibes etc. One on one with people is and has to be different and his blindness will be the first thing people will notice and react to,regardless of who they are. Exactly! (Or should I say absolutely?) Which is why I keep coming back to the fact that, no matter how much Jim is accepted as a valuable member of the squad (which happens by the end of the series if not before), he will still have to face the public and those preconceived notions of "the blind guy." "Like, totally blind?" "Am I being punked?" No matter how much Karen and the others have come around to valuing his worth, Jim is going to keep coming across this sort of attitude every time he has to deal with the public, a suspect, a perp, etc. And it will continue to weigh on him, just as continuing to do his job -- The Job -- will always take more out of him than it once did. What he's lost, I think, in the hellish transition between the old sighted Dunbar and the new, is spontaneity. No more walking down the street with your hands in your pockets. The simple act of crossing a room has to be planned. No matter how many times you've counted your way across the squad room to Fisk's door, every time you do it some small part of your brain has to do that count. No matter how many times you've crossed your living room to get a beer from the fridge, some small part of your brain has to keep thinking, Watch out for the coffee table. Don't trip on the area rug. How many candles did Christie light tonight? Remember where they are. Those micro-bursts of energy add up over the course of a day. The effect is cumulative. And enervating. And, that, really, is all I meant when I said that for Jim to keep on doing what he does is going to require stamina, concentration, and those famous balls of steel. The mental aspects of the job haven't changed. The physical aspects have. And, as good as he gets, it will never be easy. That's what I meant about how it costs him, what it takes out of him. I think for the past couple of days we have all, basically, been on the same page. It's really a question of wording, and "slant." And that's what keeps this discussion going and this board so lively. Said it before, but why not say it again? Viva Blind Justice! Since this is where Kyt seems to be focusing, the question remains... Has Jim's base personality changed? I say yes, it has. Like it or not, it has. The constant "micro-bursts" of energy maggie described so well. The constantly being on your guard. Not being able to look people in the eye hoosier mentioned. Having the first thing people notice about you be a physical characteristic considered limiting. All of those things change the way you interact with the world. Changing the way you interact with the world is going to change who you are. That is what I believe. So yes, his personality has changed, too much has happened, it was inevitable. Mr. Eldard what do you say on this? Did you see this character as someone who's base personality has changed? Did you try to play him that way? Come on, inquiring minds want to know! Thank you Kyt for opening up a great debate! |
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Post by kytdunne on Sept 15, 2005 16:32:57 GMT -5
The way I see it, you're talking methodology, not personality. He has had to learn to approach people on a different level. He apparently was good at it before, he seems to have an easy rapport , but now there can be no eye contact and he must rely on tone of voice, vibes etc. One on one with people is and has to be different and his blindness will be the first thing people will notice and react to,regardless of who they are. But is he capable of an easy rapport with people now? Is he capable of communicating, interrogating, commiserating, understanding? Jim has had to sit back and examine himself--I am not talking a deep philosophical thing but who he is, what he wanted to do, and what he had to do to get back to what he did ,namely police work. He is more than capable if limited in what he can do. Unfortunately, his disability is what people see first and how many will judge him regardless of well he does his job. Its tough to overcome stereotypes and preconceptions. You can butt your head up against them all day long or do your job and let that speak for itself. How people view him is an external condition that may or may not affect an individual's base personality. Does he still have the same goals? Does he still want to be a cop? A homicide detective? What has changed in his goals that indicates a change in his personality? As to Christie, I think she could have been a tad more understanding. Of course, she didn't know what kind of a day he had had and he did said he had had a good day so that was all she had to go one. When she pushed for more information, he got mad and said he he didn't want to face at home what he had faced all day at work. She was getting mixed signals. But then she overeacted and threw it in his face that he kept closing her out. Okay-what would you do??? Back off?? Not apologize per say but back off. You can get your answers another day, hopefully. Let him blow off steam--it wasn't your fault, you were just the handy target. He couldn't let his temper flare at work so he did at home. Mixed signals? Dunbar said he wasn't ready to talk and she kept pushing. If going from not wanting to talk to anger when someone keeps demanding is 'mixed', then it's mixed. But the cause of this battle is laid at Christie's feet. Kyt |
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Post by kytdunne on Sept 15, 2005 16:42:18 GMT -5
What he's lost, I think, in the hellish transition between the old sighted Dunbar and the new, is spontaneity. No more walking down the street with your hands in your pockets. The simple act of crossing a room has to be planned. No matter how many times you've counted your way across the squad room to Fisk's door, every time you do it some small part of your brain has to do that count. No matter how many times you've crossed your living room to get a beer from the fridge, some small part of your brain has to keep thinking, Watch out for the coffee table. Don't trip on the area rug. How many candles did Christie light tonight? Remember where they are. Those micro-bursts of energy add up over the course of a day. The effect is cumulative. And ennervating. And, that, really, is all I meant when I said that for Jim to keep on doing what he does is going to require stamina, concentration, and those famous balls of steel. The mental aspects of the job haven't changed. The physical aspects have. And, as good as he gets, it will never be easy. That's what I meant about how it costs him, what it takes out of him. Do you think it's far more wearing on a person's physical being to use sensory input other than visual? Enough so that anyone and everyone who is blind, exerts more effort in getting through the day, than a sighted person? Regardless of what an individual may recognize as a normal condition of being? I think for the past couple of days we have all, basically, been on the same page. I'm not so certain. Kyt |
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Post by kytdunne on Sept 15, 2005 16:57:43 GMT -5
Since this is where Kyt seems to be focusing, the question remains... Has Jim's base personality changed? Yes. (Although, I apologize if I didn't make that clear). I say yes, it has. Like it or not, it has. The constant "micro-bursts" of energy maggie described so well. The constantly being on your guard. Not being able to look people in the eye hoosier mentioned. Having the first thing people notice about you be a physical characteristic considered limiting. All of those things change the way you interact with the world. Changing the way you interact with the world is going to change who you are. That is what I believe. So yes, his personality has changed, too much has happened, it was inevitable. Okay, so now I understand you do see a distinct split in his personality pre- and post- blindness. What I don't understand *now* (new angle), is how his inability to look someone in the eye, or needing to ask directions to the train station, changes "the pattern of collective character, behavioral, temperamental, emotional, and mental traits of a person" - specifically, Dunbar - in such a way that he's got a different personality. We know he has the same goals, to be a homicide detective. We know he was brave before and if we can agree that he is brave to buck the system to fight for getting reinstated, then he's still brave. He's still fighting the same fights with his wife - she hasn't seen much change in his behavior. (Although we all know they're both addressing this issue). Terry sees a big difference. I'm not so sure I can support Terry's theory on this one. Hermanson didn't mention any change and the fact that he came to find Dunbar suggests he thought Dunbar would help him, blind or not, so that hasn't changed. Does he still have the same interests, likes and dislikes, the same quirks that make him a unique individual? And if it really does come down to the fact that being blind changes how he's viewed, and so changes his personality: Then are all blind people subjugated to the same category? Is Dunbar's character now more in line with that of other blind people? Still curious, Kyt |
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Post by maggiethecat on Sept 15, 2005 17:03:20 GMT -5
Do you think it's far more wearing on a person's physical being to use sensory input other than visual? Enough so that anyone and everyone who is blind, exerts more effort in getting through the day, than a sighted person? Regardless of what an individual may recognize as a normal condition of being? I'm not talking about all blind people -- I wouldn't presume! I'm taking taking my cues from The Pilot and the early episodes and as such, it's clear to me that the extra concentration and stamina needed to get through the day is an element of Dunbar's life. We can also assume that Dunbar was sighted for something like 40 years and blind for a year when the series opens, so over the long arc of a lifespan, blindness is still relatively new territory. No doubt the simple act of navigating through each day will become less onerous as the years roll on. But, as I said, I was taking my information from The Pilot and the early episodes. |
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Post by housemouse on Sept 15, 2005 17:43:21 GMT -5
Since this is where Kyt seems to be focusing, the question remains... Has Jim's base personality changed? Yes. (Although, I apologize if I didn't make that clear). I say yes, it has. Like it or not, it has. The constant "micro-bursts" of energy maggie described so well. The constantly being on your guard. Not being able to look people in the eye hoosier mentioned. Having the first thing people notice about you be a physical characteristic considered limiting. All of those things change the way you interact with the world. Changing the way you interact with the world is going to change who you are. That is what I believe. So yes, his personality has changed, too much has happened, it was inevitable. Okay, so now I understand you do see a distinct split in his personality pre- and post- blindness. What I don't understand *now* (new angle), is how his inability to look someone in the eye, or needing to ask directions to the train station, changes "the pattern of collective character, behavioral, temperamental, emotional, and mental traits of a person" - specifically, Dunbar - in such a way that he's got a different personality. Character, probably not, mental, most likely not. Behavioral, temperamental, and emotional, absolutely. We know he has the same goals, to be a homicide detective. We know he was brave before and if we can agree that he is brave to buck the system to fight for getting reinstated, then he's still brave. He's still fighting the same fights with his wife - she hasn't seen much change in his behavior. (Although we all know they're both addressing this issue). Terry sees a big difference. I'm not so sure I can support Terry's theory on this one. Hermanson didn't mention any change and the fact that he came to find Dunbar suggests he thought Dunbar would help him, blind or not, so that hasn't changed. Sure he's still brave, sure he still has issues with his wife, the shooting and the blindness intensified these things. I'm not convinced Hermanson knew he was blind when he showed up. Whether that would have made a difference, I don't know. Does he still have the same interests, likes and dislikes, the same quirks that make him a unique individual? And if it really does come down to the fact that being blind changes how he's viewed, and so changes his personality: Then are all blind people subjugated to the same category? Is Dunbar's character now more in line with that of other blind people? Some of his interests are probably the same and some are probably not. He can't enjoy boxing or basketball as much as he used to. He doesn't bowl or play pool anymore. But now he can really cut a rug. First, let me make it perfectly clear that I would not be so presumptuous as to speak for blind people. I am merely speaking of this character and the way he is portrayed in the show. A fundamental change in how people view him, as a man and a police officer, accompanied by a fundamental change in how he interacts with the world changed this character. One example is the fact that he is no longer interested in cheating on his wife. |
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Post by hoosier on Sept 15, 2005 17:53:38 GMT -5
His base personality(feelings, likes/dislikes) has not changed but as Galloway said , he will have to learn to reconcile how he sees himself now (as blind) as opposed to how he saw himself before (sighted) so even the esteemed Galloway feels there is a difference between the blind and the sighted Jim Dunbar. I am no psychologist, but any traumatic event tends to change a person. To what extent depends upon the individual.
As to Christie and the mixed signals. He said he had a good day and was busy. I think she saw that as an opening and pursued it not taking into account his body language and tone of voice. She was so eager to hear about his day that she just plowed in regardless of his feelings.
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Post by maggiethecat on Sept 15, 2005 19:17:23 GMT -5
Some of his interests are probably the same and some are probably not. He can't enjoy boxing or basketball as much as he used to. He doesn't bowl or play pool anymore. But now he can really cut a rug. First, let me make it perfectly clear that I would not be so presumptuous as to speak for blind people. I am merely speaking of this character and the way he is portrayed in the show. A fundamental change in how people view him, as a man and a police officer, accompanied by a fundamental change in how he interacts with the world changed this character. One example is the fact that he is no longer interested in cheating on his wife. Well said, Mouse. It's all about this character, and as such must be taken in the context of the show. But I have to think there is a substantial difference between the blind and the newly blind -- call it my overactive, empathetic writer's imagination. So although Dunbar's character, the core of who he is, may not have changed, I still aver that what has changed -- at least until he reaches the acceptance stage -- is that the mundane, the ordinary, the day to day tasks he once took for granted, now require a kind of thought and concentration they once didn't. And this, too, may change, but as for what Kyt termed "a normal condition of being?" He's not there yet. In his fantasies and his dreams, he is always sighted. Even if he still thinks about himself as he once was, others don't . . . and that's what he has to deal with. This show, after all, is about Dunbar's journey. |
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Post by maggiethecat on Sept 15, 2005 19:22:58 GMT -5
As to Christie and the mixed signals. He said he had a good day and was busy. I think she saw that as an opening and pursued it not taking into account his body language and tone of voice. She was so eager to hear about his day that she just plowed in regardless of his feelings. Hey, Hoosier, best explanatioon I've heard yet for Miz Dunbar's crappy behavior! I don't think she was waiting to sandbag him -- she, as you say, just plowed in, and so did he, and it all went downhill from there. As for the stuff she hit him with once they were in full argument mode, I'm not excusing her. All things considered, it was probably wise of Jim to shut down and go play with his ball than even attempt to address comments like "You don't need me, you need your dog." And, even though I freely admit I'm no big Christie fan, I'd like to think she felt lousy about that little crack . . . maybe at three in the morning when she couldn't get to sleep? |
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Post by mlm828 on Sept 15, 2005 21:32:41 GMT -5
I've been following this discussion with great interest and don't have much to add to the insightful comments already made. hoosier's and maggie's comments, above, pretty much sum up my thinking.
I agree that a traumatic event that changes the way one perceives and experiences the world and other people -- such as the sudden and traumatic loss of one's eyesight -- will change a person, but exactly how one changes depends on the individual.
It also occurs to me, however, that even after experiencing changes, we often feel we're still basically the same person. I think that is the case with Jim Dunbar. He feels, subjectively, that in many ways he is still the same person he was before the shooting. He has to do things differently, and getting through the day requires more concentration and effort than when he was sighted -- and there are some things he can't do at all. But, subjectively, he doesn't define himself by his blindness, and he doesn't want to be defined by it. The conflict -- and the drama -- arise, because most other people define him by his blindness, at least at first.
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Post by maggiethecat on Sept 15, 2005 22:36:03 GMT -5
mlm88 wrote:
It also occurs to me, however, that even after experiencing changes, we often feel we're still basically the same person. I think that is the case with Jim Dunbar. He feels, subjectively, that in many ways he is still the same person he was before the shooting. He has to do things differently, and getting through the day requires more concentration and effort than when he was sighted -- and there are some things he can't do at all. But, subjectively, he doesn't define himself by his blindness, and he doesn't want to be defined by it. The conflict -- and the drama -- arise, because most other people define him by his blindness, at least at first.
Well said, mlm! May I say, if we haven't worn it to the fraying point, absolutely? Whether or not Dunbar defines himself by his blindness -- and you can probably infer by his attitude and comments made to Galloway that he doesn't -- the problem is that others do and probably will continue to for some time. Those he knows well won't after a while -- we see this with Karen in particular, and certainly Fisk, and I have to think that Christie never did. The Great Unenlightened Public and those he comes across in the course of doing his job, will. (Although I'm guessing no matter how many times they run into each other, the Chief of Ds always will!)
"I'm a cop," is JIm's final statement to Galloway, even after the conversation about his reconciling who and what he was with who and what he is. Cop first, blind second. It's an interesting distinction, and a telling one.
So yes, I have to believe along with you that how one changes after a life-altering event depends on the individual, and such intangibles as determination, grit, stamina, and humor. Or sheer stubbornness. Never underestimate the power of stubbornness.
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Post by mlm828 on Sept 16, 2005 0:03:03 GMT -5
You read my mind, maggie. I agree Christie is the one major character who doesn't define Jim by his blindness. Of course, at the time the series begins, she's had a year to reach this point. I also agree that, with the passage of time, Karen and Fisk no longer define Jim by his blindness, but I'm not so sure about Marty and Tom. Even though their attitudes toward Jim change over the course of the series, I think both of them still see Jim as a blind man first. And, yes, the same is definitely true of the Chief of Ds.
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Post by inuvik on Sept 16, 2005 11:06:24 GMT -5
You read my mind, maggie. I agree Christie is the one major character who doesn't define Jim by his blindness. Of course, at the time the series begins, she's had a year to reach this point. I also agree that, with the passage of time, Karen and Fisk no longer define Jim by his blindness, but I'm not so sure about Marty and Tom. Even though their attitudes toward Jim change over the course of the series, I think both of them still see Jim as a blind man first. And, yes, the same is definitely true of the Chief of Ds. Let's not forget that too that Christie is the only major character (Terry and Jim's snitch are minor characters) who also knew Jim before he was blinded. Karen knew of him from her friend, but that's not the same. I think that helps explain why Christie doesn't define Jim by his blindness. |
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